Saturday, August 01, 2009
The problem of evil and justice for non-Christians
Lookout Mountain, Chattanooga, Tennessee
I would like to go there and ride the cable car.
Thanks for reading. First of all, the expense of this TOTALLY FREE BLOG is getting to be too much. And so here are a couple of advertisements. Thanks to Chucky for the assistance.
Depressed...here is some treatment.
lonelymn.mp3
Chucky needs cash!
Bobby Buff has to go to bed soon and rest his 'buff bod.'
friday edit.mp3
I have been working on the issue of the problem of evil and non-Christians within my PhD revisions. Here is some of my reasoning.
John Calvin points out that preaching and teaching the word of God impacts a person to believe in Christ.[1] The Holy Spirit works through preaching to impact a person,[2] that if saved does not eventually believe and work for Christ through primarily human ‘wisdom’,[3] or by ‘chance.’[4] The gospel is only ‘granted to a few without human aid’[5] and most will believe through the assistance of some sort of human agency.[6] I therefore see my thesis work as a human means[7] by which the Christian message through a Reformed lens can be presented.[8]
Since I reason a sovereignty perspective is the most workable and likely theodicy approach,[9] I am presenting it to those outside of the Church in the hope that they will be impacted. This gospel associated theodicy view allows for the possibility of forgiveness of sins within the atonement for persons[10] and for persons to experience the ultimate justice of God’s culminated Kingdom.[11] Bloesch explains that in the context of atonement and justice[12] with God’s holiness he forgives and forbears and demonstrates his love.[13] There is within my theodicy concepts of ultimate justice[14] and deliverance from the problem of evil and its results,[15] but as a Christian scholar attempting to be as accurate in understanding as possible, I must include the concept that sin must first be atoned for in Christ[16] before a person can experience the benefits of a culminated Kingdom free from evil and suffering.[17] G.C. Berkouwer explains that ‘Man[18] is-even when alienated from God-not alone.’ God has still gifted fallen humanity and there is a possible limitation to human corruption, that being the grace of Christ and his words and work. God still has the power and opportunity to save persons, and humanly speaking persons have an opportunity to know Christ in conversion.[19]
[1] Calvin (1543)(1996: 34).
[2] Calvin (1543)(1996: 34).
[3] Calvin (1543)(1996: 34).
[4] Calvin (1543)(1996: 34).
[5] Calvin (1543)(1996: 34).
[6] Calvin (1543)(1996: 34).
[7] Calvin (1543)(1996: 34).
[8] I also present my views on the problem of evil at Church and with believers and non-believers alike on Blogger and Facebook.
[9] But not the only approach with some good and reasonable points, as there are valuable points from non-Reformed theists and atheists within this work.
[10] Green (1971: iii). Whale (1958: 81).
[11] Mounce explains that the Great White Throne judgment of Revelation 20 is not an arbitrary judgment of God but is based on the works of each person. Mounce (1990: 365-366). It is sign of the ultimate justice of God for all persons.
[12] Bloesch (1987: 97).
[13] Bloesch (1987: 97).
[14] Mounce (1990: 365-366).
[15] Feinberg (1994: 141). Moltmann (1993: 178). Mounce (1990: 372).
[16] Green (1971: iii). Whale (1958: 81). On this matter I do not see myself as a judge of those outside of Christ, but rather as one reporting within the best of my ability, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, what Scripture states about human sin and salvation.
[17] Sin, death and suffering will not exist in the culminated Kingdom. Mounce (1990: 372).
[18] I prefer the term humankind.
[19] Berkouwer (1962: 183-193). Within a compatibilistic framework.
BERKOUWER, G.C. (1962) Man: The Image of God, Grand Rapids, W.M.B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
BLOESCH, DONALD G. (1987) Freedom for Obedience, San Francisco, Harper and Rowe Publishers.
CALVIN, JOHN (1543)(1996) The Bondage and Liberation of the Will, Translated by G.I. Davies, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
FEINBERG, JOHN.S. (1994) The Many Faces of Evil, Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing House.
GREEN, JAY (1971) Five Points of Calvinism, ‘Forward’, Grand Rapids, Sovereign Grace Publishers.
MOLTMANN, JÜRGEN (1993) The Crucified God, Minneapolis, Fortress Press.
MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1990) The Book of Revelation, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
WHALE, J.S. (1958) Christian Doctrine, Glasgow, Fontana Books.
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I've been to Lookout Mountain.
ReplyDeleteThat giraffe in "McDonald's Hits Africa" is absurdly obese. I'm wondering if they used "Liquify" in Photoshop, or a similar technique, to create that grotesque monstrosity.
Sounds like Chucky does a pretty good chicken imitation. If it was video, he could have dressed in a chicken costume.
I am the chicken!
ReplyDeleteCheers, Jeff.
P.S. What is Lookout Mountain like?
He should dress up!
Russ,
ReplyDelete"G.C. Berkouwer explains that ‘Man is-even when alienated from God-not alone.’ God has still gifted fallen humanity and there is a possible limitation to human corruption, that being the grace of Christ and his words and work."
I think man is 'not alone' even when alienated because I haven't seen an proof that any man doesn't have God on his mind, even those who claim Atheism can't stop talking about Him. However, they are given over to delusion. I think all people are gifted, but some fail to use their gift and some pervert it. I think people can be reached and saved, otherwise we wouldn't be exhorted so much to tell the Gospel. I think a time will come when God will remove limitations on human corruption until He changes this world and exacts final judgments.
I've been up Lookout Mountain on the cable car. I'll put a picture on Facebook.
Larry E.
'even those who claim Atheism can't stop talking about Him.'
ReplyDeleteGood point.
'I think people can be reached and saved, otherwise we wouldn't be exhorted so much to tell the Gospel.'
Certainly the elect who God chooses can be reached and we in the Church do not know for certain who the future elect will be. Therefore we evangelize.
'I think a time will come when God will remove limitations on human corruption until He changes this world and exacts final judgments.'
Let us hope there is a great restoration in the Church and revival in the world.
Thanks, Larry.
LOL! some funny pics.
ReplyDeleteI try, Tammy.:)
ReplyDeleteThank you.
With regard to the last photo, since I don't have any friends I guess that means I'm the sane one...right?
ReplyDeleteI've just begun to read David Chilton's commentary on Revelation, "The Days of Vengeance" and J. Stuart Russell's, "Parousia: The New Testament Doctrine of our Lord's Second Coming" which both deal with Apocalyptic/Judgement issues in terms of fulfillment in Christ with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. Of course these works fit in nicely with the "Christian Reconstrucionists" (ala Rushdoony, Bahnsen, Gary North, et. al) that I'll also be reading as I get the time.
Although mostly coming from a "Reformed" Soteriology, this movement has a much different take on the subject of "justice" that I'm very interested in. I think they are fundamentally flawed in their understanding of how Christ is the fulfillment of the OT (in its entirety), so I don't think their reconstructionism is as biblical as they'd like to think; but I do appreciate the preterism that seems to guide their thinking. For the most part, Christians don't seem to take the language of immanent fulfillment that pervades the Gospels and Epistles very seriously (especially the pre-mil dispensationalists!).
This movement has much good to say regarding the motif of justice/judgement in the Scripture and will influence how one understands your theme of, "The Problem of evil and justice for non-Christians" as well as for "Christians".
I'll try to get some posts up in the future as I progress through the material.
GGM
p.s. no pics, but Lookout Mountain is very cool!
I have lots of Western European students online (I teach online) who proclaimed as atheists. These are professionals. In God's grace I pray that somehow I show them why and how important God is in our lives. If I preach, it would be not convincing so better show it in the simplest way I know, in our lessons for 30 minutes. Somehow, it was a little change but for me a miracle when one of them emailed me and right at the end of his email he typed, "God bless!" Whether he just did it to respect the faith I profess or not, I considered it a divine intervention, indeed man is not alone! God bless!
ReplyDeleteby the way these are really funny pictures i hope you would not mind if one day ill post them too
ReplyDeleteThanks for the information, GGM.:)
ReplyDelete'I considered it a divine intervention, indeed man is not alone! God bless!'
ReplyDeleteFine work, Honey.
'by the way these are really funny pictures i hope you would not mind if one day ill post them too'
Fine by me, I do not own the copyright.;)
Cheers.:)
thanks for your comment and for checking out my blog!
ReplyDeleteYou are welcome, Abby.
ReplyDeleteThank you.
Russ;)
(LOL) Probably not. He will stay into the spacecraft all the time.
ReplyDeleteBut it's not a bad idea!!
'The first Brazilian in space, interesting.
ReplyDeleteDo you think he will kick a football around in outer space?;)'
I still need to see a Brazilian team play. I have seen Romario play for Miami, and he scored.
I may transfer my humor blog to Blogger.com. Blog.com doesn't handle comments and other things nearly as well as Blogger does. It will probably also get more hits on Blogger, I'm guessing.
ReplyDeleteYes, we can work on getting more traffic. A good goal.
ReplyDeleteIt was a real raining meteors!!! Didn't you see it?
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe you.:)
ReplyDeleteThere was a write-up on that "Most Interesting Man In The World" ad campaign for Dos Equis beer in the latest MacLeans issue. It's been discussed here before, I think.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Dos Chuquis.
ReplyDelete'Freeing a trapped bear, leading a midnight hike through the jungle, playing a rousing game of jai alai—it’s all in a day’s work for the Most Interesting Man in the World, the star of the current ad campaign for Dos Equis beer. Featuring veteran TV actor Jonathan Goldsmith in a gloriously rumpled tuxedo, the ads have made Dos Equis into a household name, no small feat in the current recession.
Launched in Canada in 2008, the ads (which have appeared in some U.S. markets since 2006, and went national there this year) show our protagonist engaged in various acts of derring-do as a narrator recites facts about him: “The police often question him just because they find him interesting.” “He once had an awkward moment, just to see how it feels.” Sunburned and silver-haired, Goldsmith’s character dangles a bottle of Dos Equis from thumb and forefinger, presumably unwinding after his latest escapade. “I don’t always drink beer,” he rumbles. “But when I do, I prefer Dos Equis.”
The campaign has won awards, and sparked a slew of imitators—including Don Cherry, who did his Most Interesting Man impersonation on Hockey Night in Canada. At the Dos Equis Facebook page, which has over 150,000 fans, people post favourite facts about him, or invent their own. The character even hosts a Most Interesting Academy online, where devotees can learn everything from survival tips to animal kingdom lore. “When I drink Dos Equis, I quote [the ads] from memory,” says Martin Bateman, 24, a ship’s officer who lives in St. John’s, Nfld. He and his friends are planning to post their own tribute video on YouTube. Bateman’s favourite line? “He can speak French—in Russian.”
All this has translated into huge gains for Dos Equis at a time when most imports are struggling, says Dan Wandel, an analyst with Information Resources, Inc. Case sales of imported beer in the U.S. are down over four per cent this year compared to last, as beer drinkers turn to lower-priced domestics, yet Dos Equis, a Mexican beer, is up almost 22 per cent, he notes. According to Sleeman, the brand’s Canadian marketing and sales agent, sales have more than tripled in the past year. Wandel attributes this in part to the highly successful ad campaign. “What Dos Equis has done in the current environment is nothing short of remarkable,” Wandel says. “It’s the bright star in the [imports] segment.”'
P.S. What is Lookout Mountain like?
ReplyDeleteIt's been so many years since I've been there that I barely remember. I was young. I think we briefly stopped there, rather than spending much time there.
Well it looks interesting, anyway.
ReplyDeleteCheers.
I loved the zoo picture and ad.
ReplyDeleteCongrats on the paid ad's also.
This has nothing to do with the topic but it was funny. Me and my wife just had our 15 year anniversary and she wanted us to renew our vows.
well I am always teasing the guys at church, so a couple single brothers at different times came up to me and said in a sarcastic way, AAWW how sweet, you renewed your vows, and I'm amazed your wife put up with you for so long.
My response to them was, I have had a women in my life for 15 years, in reality it has been 17 years since we dated for 2 prior to marriage.
How long have you had a women in your life....? O-Yay, thats right you DONT. That shut them up. That was funny. Rick b
Thanks, Rick.
ReplyDeleteYes I still need to find a right Christian woman, God willing.
Happy Weekend and congratulations!
Russ
hahah check out that giraffe!!
ReplyDeleteyour PhD sounds rather complicated...
Very complicated, thanks!
ReplyDeleteRuss;)
Someone has used an old article of mine, where I used many citations, without citing me as original source.
He even used my comments and so I left him another one.
augusta
"If you fall, animals could eat you and that might make them sick." ????!!!
ReplyDeleteI can't believe someone wrote this!
A funny sign.:)
ReplyDeleteCheers.
Below is a reply to a comment posted on an archived post.
ReplyDeleteThe clip is from the LDS...figures.;) Have you considered other sources as well?
Thank you for commenting.
Three main problems with the LDS I shall present (there are more):
1. Scripture states that there is only one God, Isaiah 43, 44, 45, and Deuteronomy 6: 4-6, for example. Matthew 22 and Mark 12 continue with the theme and state persons are to love this God only. There is no Biblical option, as in henotheism, to worship one God and yet believe in other gods.
Please with an open mind prayerfully examine this article which points out a fatal philosophical flaw with the LDS concept of gods.
vicious regress
The Trinity is a Biblically based concept.
From:
trinity
Portion:
Robert M. Bowman notes that the Trinitarian faith does not allow for the dividing of substance. Bowman (1990: 13). The persons present in the Trinity are not representing three separate beings with differing natures of differing substance, but to Bowman they are three personal distinctions each fully God. Bowman (1990: 13).
2. Ephesians 2 is clear that no person is saved by works. Works are a sign of being saved by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)
8For (A)by grace you have been saved (B)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (C)the gift of God;
9(D)not as a result of works, so that (E)no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, (F)created in (G)Christ Jesus for (H)good works, which God (I)prepared beforehand so that we would (J)walk in them.
James discusses a similar idea when he states in James 2 that faith is dead without works and therefore works are a sign of a faith that is alive.
Please read Romans 1-5, and Galatians 1-2.
3. The Scriptures are consistent in message, culminated in the New Testament and have not been altered in theological content. There is no need for further Scriptural Revelation.
From:
manuscripts
Portion:
W.R.F. Browning explains that canon comes from the Greek word for 'rule' or 'standard'. In both the Old and New Testaments canon formation was gradual and controversial. Browning (1996: 57). Browning notes some New Testament era books were quoted by Church Fathers, although the texts were not canonized. Browning (1996: 57). Jesus Christ's teachings and story was passed along in oral tradition and then eventually written down in the Four Gospels, and sidelined rival versions. Browning (1996: 57). The Epistles from Apostles and their scribes were preserved by the churches and soon formed a collection along with the Gospels. Browning (1996: 57).
Am I overly concerned that some inspired texts have been excluded from the New Testament canon? No.
The twenty-seven books contain the same basic Gospel and theology.
Contrary texts have been weeded out by Church Fathers.
Even if an inspired text is missing from the canon, and God has willingly allowed this, which I doubt, the current canon, along with the Hebrew Bible, provides correct history and teaching concerning the Old Testament, the Gospel, primary theological issues, and in my view, many secondary theological issues.
In closing, you still need to be asking a lot more questions from a lot more sources about Christ. Please do not just take the word of Smith, Young and following.
Russ:)
I'm glad you could answer that Mormon in such a scholarly, learned manner, Russ.
ReplyDeleteFrom the video the LDS guy linked to on your archived post, trying to convince people that Mormons are Christians:
"I testify that Jesus Christ is the literal living son of our literal living God."
Yeah, but what he doesn't say is that Mormons believe Jesus was conceived by God sexually; and that they believe God is made up of flesh and bone just like we are; and that God is an evolved man.
Also see:
Mormons (Latter Day Saints)
Excellent further points, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteCheers.
My mormon blog is pretty much done, Their are so many good blogs and websites out their it is hard to add to them and keep up on mine.
ReplyDeletea good blog for learning about mormons or sharing with them is, www.answeringlds.org
whenyou get their you will see 4 different pictures. 2 on the top and two on the bottom.
click onto the picture on the bottom left, when you move the cursor over it, it should say, have a voice on our blog or something to that effect.
I am replying their almost daily, just not on every topic, and your only allowed 6 posts with a certain letter limit, so please read their policy section. rick b
I have heard of the site, Rick.
ReplyDeleteThanks my friend.
When I left the basement suite of a mutual church friend this Sunday afternoon after playing a fun game of Zombies, I noticed two men at the doorstop talking to one of the main-floor residents, likely Mormon or JW.
ReplyDeleteZombies. I have played it.
ReplyDeleteWere these men young adults or older?
"‘Man[18] is-even when alienated from God-not alone.’ God has still gifted fallen humanity and there is a possible limitation to human corruption, that being the grace of Christ and his words and work."
ReplyDeleteLike common grace. In a weird way of looking at things, the bad in this world could be evidence of God's grace by the fact that He just doesn't wipe out the earth or send down brimstone. In a way, it shows His longsuffering/grace.
Anyway, wonderful post as usual. Read carefully and agree.
Well stated.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Ms. Facts.;)