http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/2008/06/limited-atonement.html
I realize the clips below are a bit long, and so I recommend watching the first 4-5 minutes of the first video. A former Jehovah's Witness is being phoned by an elder and accused of having a birthday party. The man posting the video does not want to be 'disfellowshipped'. The first 4-5 minutes of the video features:
1. Some insight into the Jehovah's Witnesses organization and an example of what it views as an important spiritual issue.
2. Funny sounds.
3. The man being confronted makes a good point, as he alludes to Matthew 18 where one is to approach and reprove an offending person in private, and if the offending person does not listen, one is to take two or more persons to talk to the offending person. The elder did not seem interested in following this Biblical example, although he acknowledged the concept as Biblical.
http://www.religionfacts.com/jehovahs_witnesses/holidays.htm
Rejection of Holidays
One of the more well-known practices of the Jehovah's Witnesses is their non-celebration of holidays. All holidays, including birthdays, are considered "pagan holidays" and may not be observed by Witnesses. The official website of the Jehovah's Witnesses explains:
Jesus never commanded Christians to celebrate his birth. Rather, he told his disciples to memorialize, or remember, his death. (Luke 22:19, 20) Christmas and its customs come from ancient false religions. The same is true of Easter customs, such as the use of eggs and rabbits. The early Christians did not celebrate Christmas or Easter, nor do true Christians today.
The only two birthday celebrations spoken of in the Bible were held by persons who did not worship Jehovah. (Genesis 40:20-22; Mark 6:21, 22, 24-27) The early Christians did not celebrate birthdays. The custom of celebrating birthdays comes from ancient false religions. True Christians give gifts and have good times together at other times during the year. {1}
http://www.allbaby.com/babyinfo/birthdays.htm
Happy Birthday! The Origin of the Birthday Party
Birthdays are considered happy occasions when we celebrate a person’s special day with gifts, sweets, parties and good cheer. However, looking back into history, birthdays were not always seen as a festive day.
In Europe many thousands of years ago, a person’s birth-day was seen as a fearful experience. Common belief was that bad spirits could harm the person on the anniversary of his or her birth. A way to keep the evil spirits at bay was to surround oneself with family and friends, who often brought small gifts or food to share.
At these protective gatherings, people would use crude noisemakers to scare off the evil spirits lurking about. The custom of lighting candles and torches also began. In these days, most people believed that gods lived in the sky and a fire light that is later extinguished would send a sign to these gods.
Birthday celebrations began to take on a more positive tone during the Middle Ages, but they were still very rare and usually only celebrated by royalty or the very wealthy. During the Reformation, the recognition of one’s birthday began to be more common.
During this period, the English people began making cakes for the birthday person, often hiding coins, rings and thimbles inside.
The concept of children’s birthday celebrations was thought to have first started in Germany and the day was called Kinderfeste.
Over the centuries, birthdays have evolved from simple events with token presents and good wishes to a significant annual event in people’s lives. Most people now celebrate with a party of some type – especially for children. Sometimes birthday parties can be lavish events, these usually taking place for adults on what is considered a “milestone” birthday, reached at age 18, 21, 30, 40, 50 and the decades beyond.
Sure enough according to both my Jehovah's Witnesses and All About Baby® links, a birthday party has pagan roots, although this seems to be primarily from a historical European perspective. But I state, 'So what'; common sense is needed here. If a birthday party is thrown to 'keep the evil spirits at bay' then the motives behind the party are indeed wrong. If a birthday party is thrown by persons to celebrate, in love, a fellow human being, it can be a good thing. It can be a bad thing to throw a party that features heavy use of human vices, or it can be a good thing featuring love and fellowship. The fact that the birthday party or anything has pagan roots does not make it a bad thing in itself. It was the idea of keeping evil spirits at bay, rather than trusting in the Biblical God, that was wrong with the original birthday party concept. There is nothing wrong with the idea of a birthday party in itself. Mark 6: 21 mentions Herod's birthday banquet and so this was a custom in Jesus' culture. I am not an expert on birthdays and will not state that the concept of a birthday party in the ancient Near East equals the concept of a 21st century Western birthday party, but doubtless there would be similarities.
Since this article is already long enough, I am not going to discuss Jehovah's Witnesses doctrines here in detail, but this can be done in comments if needed via your always appreciated respectful comments.:)
I hate to start controversy, (OK so that's not true!);-) but I and like-minded believers also believe it is wrong to celebrate most "church holidays" under the regulative principle of Worship. (nothing to do with the JW's obviously!) The only holy day instituted by Christ is the Christian sabbath. And the regulative principle of Worship says what God hasn't commanded, we do not make up, or add to Scripture and make it up as we go along. (like x-mass, ishtar and the like) (The westminster of confession of faith, teaches that much)
ReplyDeleteHowever, its my birthday today. And I would celebrate it, but have no one to celebrate it with! Well, apart from my cat!
So the reasons are anything not commanded in Scripture in the ways of worship is not warranted, and nothing to do with cultic notions of the JW. Those notions are clearly, just, ummm... weird!
Thanks, Deejay.:)
ReplyDeleteYes, we have been over this before, last Christmas.
I stated:
In Colossians 2:16, Paul writes that no one should be judged concerning a Sabbath day. I do believe in the day of rest, but the consensus I have received from scholars is that one particular day is not set in stone, but that Sunday, as resurrection day is part of Christian tradition. This would mean that Sabbatarians are not sinning by taking their day of rest on Saturday. Paul in Romans 14:1-12 would appear to support the idea that one day is not above the rest, but I do believe in obeying the commandment in principle.
Happy Birthday, Deejay.
Interesting article. I never really have been around many Jehovah Witnesses, and I haven't done much study on what they believe, so I didn't even know that they don't allow the celebration of birthdays. The verses they used to back it up are taken way out of context, and it's totally missing the point. They're just creating more laws for themselves to have to obey instead of understanding the message of the Bible. There's this little saying that goes, "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text." I could understand why they would want to stay away from parties because of their pagan roots, but birthday parties, like you said, are not in and of themselves bad.
ReplyDeleteThank you, Abbey.
ReplyDeleteThe verses they used to back it up are taken way out of context, and it's totally missing the point. They're just creating more laws for themselves to have to obey instead of understanding the message of the Bible. There's this little saying that goes, "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."
The texts they quote do not prove that birthday parties are wrong. You make a good point that they are simply prooftexting and trying to make their notions work.
In my experiences with Jehovah's Witnesses and an ex-Jehovah's Witness, much of the theology is determined by various philosophical/theological notions placed on God and individual texts.
I could understand why they would want to stay away from parties because of their pagan roots, but birthday parties, like you said, are not in and of themselves bad.
Exactly.
Oh yeah, I remember now. Trouble is, that I have had Christians I knew in actual life, say I was like a JW, and so write me off as cultic, which was basically their own ignorance in not knowing it was an orthodox Reformed distinctive for some folks.
ReplyDeleteWell, from blogging with you I would conclude that you certainly do hold to essential Christian doctrines, even though your views on holy days are not held by many Presbyterians.
ReplyDeleteCheers.:)
The problem with birthdays is that they are so passee. Can't people think of something new? Comeon, they have been doing birthdays for centuries. It is so pathetic.
ReplyDeleteAnd who can afford anything to do with them?
Jehovah's Witnesses are right as usual.
Thanks.
ReplyDeleteCelebrating a fellow human being in love is hardly pathetic and parties can be done cheaply. I know, I am a cheap student...for now.:)
Jehovah's Witnesses are not only wrong in completely rejecting birthdays, but are also considered a pseudo-Christian religion because of their rejection of the Trinity, the divinity of Christ and Biblical views on the atonement and resurrection of Christ. Yes, the word Trinity is not found in the Bible, but the concept is there and can easily be defended.
From:
Martin
The Deity of Jesus Christ
Throughout the entire content of inspired Scripture the fact of Christ’s identity is clearly taught. He is revealed as Jehovah God in human form (Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:2; Isaiah 7:14; John 1:14; 8:58; 17:5 [cf. Exodus 3:14]; Hebrews 1:3; Philippians 2:11; Colossians 2:9; and Revelation 1:8, 17–18; etc.). The deity of Jesus Christ is one of the cornerstones of Christianity, and as such has been attacked more vigorously throughout the ages than any other single doctrine of the Christian faith. Adhering to the old Arian heresy of the fourth century A.D., which Athanasius the great church Father refuted in his famous essay “On the Incarnation of the Word,” many individuals and all cults steadfastly deny the equality of Jesus Christ with God the Father, and, consequently, the Triune deity. Jehovah’s Witnesses, as has been observed, are no exception to this infamous rule. However, the testimony of the Scriptures stands sure, and the above mentioned references alone put to silence forever this blasphemous heresy, which in the power of Satan himself deceives many with its “deceitful handling of the Word of God.”
Refutation of Watchtower Theology in Regard to the Triune Deity
One of the greatest doctrines of the Scriptures is that of the Triune Godhead or the nature of God himself. To say that this doctrine is a “mystery” is indeed inconclusive, and no informed minister would explain the implications of the doctrine in such abstract terms. Jehovah’s Witnesses accuse “the clergy” of doing just that, however, and it is unfortunate to note that they are, as usual, guilty of misstatement in the presentation of the facts and even in their definition of what Christian clergymen believe the Deity to be.
First of all, Christian ministers and Christian laypersons do not believe that there are “three gods in one” (Let God Be True, 100), but do believe that there are three Persons all of the same Substance—coequal, coexistent, and coeternal. There is ample ground for this belief in the Scriptures, where plurality in the Godhead is very strongly intimated if not expressly declared. Let us consider just a few of these references.
In Genesis 1:26 Jehovah is speaking of Creation, and He speaks in the plural: “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.” Now it is obvious that God would not create man in His image and the angels’ images if He were talking to them, so He must have been addressing someone else—and who but His Son and the Holy Spirit who are equal in Substance could He address in such familiar terms? Since there is no other god but Jehovah (Isaiah 43:10–11), not even “a lesser mighty god” as Jehovah’s Witnesses affirm Christ to be, there must be a unity in plurality and Substance or the passage is not meaningful. The same is true of Genesis 11:7, when God said at the Tower of Babel, “Let us go down,” and also of Isaiah 6:8, “Who will go for us? ” These instances of plurality indicate something deeper than an interpersonal relationship; they strongly suggest what the New Testament fully develops, namely, a Tri-Unity in the One God. The claim of Jehovah’s Witnesses that the early church Fathers, including Tertullian and Theophilus, propagated and introduced the threefold unity of God into Christianity is ridiculous to the point of being hardly worth refuting. Any unbiased study of the facts will convince the impartial student that before Tertullian or Theophilus lived, the doctrine was under study and considered sound. No one doubts that among the heathen (Babylonians and Egyptians, for example) demon gods were worshiped, but to call the Triune Godhead a doctrine of the devil (Let God Be True, 101), as Jehovah’s Witnesses do, is blasphemy and the product of untutored and darkened souls.
In the entire chapter titled “Is there a Trinity?” (Let God Be True, 100–101), the whole problem as to why the Trinity doctrine is “confusing” to Jehovah’s Witnesses lies in their interpretation of “death” as it is used in the Bible. To Jehovah’s Witnesses, death is the cessation of consciousness, or destruction. However, no single or collective rendering of Greek or Hebrew words in any reputable lexicon or dictionary will substantiate their view. Death in the Scriptures is “separation” from the body as in the case of the first death (physical), and separation from God for eternity as in the second death (the lake of fire, Revelation 20). Death never means annihilation, and Jehovah’s Witnesses cannot bring in one word in context in the original languages to prove it does. A wealth of evidence has been amassed to prove it does not. I welcome comparisons on this point.
The Resurrection of Christ
Jehovah’s Witnesses, as has been observed, deny the bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ and claim instead that He was raised a “divine spirit being” or as an “invisible spirit creature.” They answer the objection that He appeared in human form by asserting that He simply took human forms as He needed them, which enabled Him to be seen, for as the Logos He would have been invisible to the human eye. In short, Jesus did not appear in the same form that hung upon the cross since that body either “dissolved into gases or is preserved somewhere as the grand memorial of God’s love”. This, in spite of Paul’s direct refutation in 1 Timothy 2:5, where he calls “the man Christ Jesus” our only mediator—some thirty years after the resurrection!
The Scriptures, however, tell a completely different story, as will be evident when their testimony is considered. Christ himself prophesied His own bodily resurrection, and John tells us “He spake of the temple of His body” (John 2:21).
In John 20:24–26, the disciple Thomas doubted the literal, physical resurrection of Christ, only to repent of his doubt (v. 28) after Jesus offered His body (v. 27), the same one that was crucified and still bore the nail prints and spear wound, to Thomas for his examination. No reasonable person will say that the body the Lord Jesus displayed was not His crucifixion body, unless he either ignorantly or willfully denies the Word of God. It was no other body “assumed” for the time by a spiritual Christ; it was the identical form that hung on the tree—the Lord himself; He was alive and undeniably tangible, not a “divine spirit being.” The Lord foresaw the unbelief of men in His bodily resurrection and made an explicit point of saying that He was not a spirit but flesh and bones (Luke 24:39–44), and He even went so far as to eat human food to prove that He was identified with humanity as well as Deity. Christ rebuked the disciples for their unbelief in His physical resurrection (Luke 24:25), and it was the physical resurrection that confirmed His deity, since only God could voluntarily lay down and take up life at will (John 10:18). We must not forget that Christ prophesied not only His resurrection but also the nature of that resurrection, which He said would be bodily (John 2:19–21). He said He would raise up “this temple” in three days (v. 19), and John tells us “He spake of the temple of his body” (v. 21).
Concerning the atonement, as Christ is fully God and fully perfect man, he can atone for all human sin, and it is applied to all those persons in Christ. Please see my latest article on limited atonement. The God-man was the perfect choice for the atoning work as he had the ability to pay for finite and everlasting sin against an infinite God. A mere angel would not be truly man, and would not be infinite God.
limited atonement
People who say parts are wrong because they have pagan backgrounds need to just sit home and be bored and have no fun, they desirve that.
ReplyDeleteI read in the Bible that to the pure all things are pure, I do not say, hey guys lets have a party because it is pagan.
Jesus went to a wedding, their was a party after it, Jesus turned water to wine, was that Pagan?
As a matter of fact, this sat, I have about 12 people coming to my house, 2 of the people, one man and one women who are good friends of mine are both having a birthday, The guy thinks he is coming over for the womens party and the women thinks she is coming for the guys party, when in fact it is a duel birthday party.
We will be grilling steaks, and since I work in a bakery, I will be making them each a special Birthday dessert.
Russ, Photos will be on my Food blog sometime next week. Then to end the party, we will all be wacthing the U.F.C. Fights.
Now here is something Funny, the JW'S twist Scripture to say Birthdays are wrong, Did they ever read this scripture? Or you guys who say Birthdays are Pagan in origin?
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:
Now I will not spoon feed anyone this next verse, I will assume everyone here knows their Bible and knows this verse, But Paul was speaking about not worrying about Meat sacfriced to Idols, if it is set in front of you eat it.
Then anyone who really wants to look for the bad in a party, I guess we could look for the bad and justify away every thing you do, say, or eat.
Lastly, the JW's say Birthdays are wrong, yet they went and changed the Scriptures, so 1st John does not say the Word was God and Was with God. They changed it to the WORD was A God. So we went from ONE God to more than one god, so now not only do they change Scripture but that goes against what Revelation teaches, that if you add to or take away from Scripture, God will add curses to you or remove your name from the Book of life.
So the JW's really have bigger things to worry about, than Birthdays. Rick b
I don't think whether you celebrate a birthday or not is anything to get worked up about, but the reasons behind why or why not you are celebrating a birthday could be. I especially think that this excuse:
ReplyDelete"The problem with birthdays is that they are so passee. Can't people think of something new? Comeon, they have been doing birthdays for centuries. It is so pathetic."
is pretty flimsy. So, if you did something new, what would it be? I'm not necessarily saying that one way is more right than the other, but in my personal opinion, which has nothing to do with religion, a birthday is a fun time in which someone can be honored. We are the image-bearers of God, so I see no reason why we aren't special. No, I'm not trying to be an ego-booster, but there's no reason to completely ignore ourselves, as long as it's done in a God-honoring manner.
Jesus went to a wedding, their was a party after it, Jesus turned water to wine, was that Pagan?
ReplyDeleteGood point, curious, eh?
Russ, Photos will be on my Food blog sometime next week. Then to end the party, we will all be wacthing the U.F.C. Fights.
Cool. Rick has a cool blog in links: Coffeehouse-Journal
So the JW's really have bigger things to worry about, than Birthdays. Rick b
The Jehovah's Witnesses have committed very serious Biblical and theological errors within their organization, as Martin pointed out as well.
Thanks, Rick.
So, if you did something new, what would it be?
ReplyDeleteExactly.
We are the image-bearers of God, so I see no reason why we aren't special. No, I'm not trying to be an ego-booster, but there's no reason to completely ignore ourselves, as long as it's done in a God-honoring manner.
Celebrating someone in a birthday is not necessarily making an idol of that person. As you state Abbey, persons bear the image of God and can be celebrated. God is the most important being to celebrate and persons can be celebrated in the context of being created by and belonging to God.
We also celebrate persons at funerals as well.
Thanks, Abbey.
grissom6471 said "The problem with birthdays is that they are so passee. Can't people think of something new? Comeon, they have been doing birthdays for centuries. It is so pathetic.".
ReplyDeleteI guess this pesron never read the Bible or missed part of it, since King Solomon said, Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it [is that] which shall be; and that which is done [is] that which shall be done: and [there is] no new [thing] under the sun.
Ecc 1:10 Is there [any] thing whereof it may be said, See, this [is] new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.
Sorry but, since their is nothing new under the sun, we really cannot come up with anything new.
But let me use your logic and say this with great sarcasm.
Are you married? If so, stop having Sex since that is so Passe, try something new. Do you love your partner? If so, try beating them since Loving them is so Passe.
Rick b
Thanks, Rick.
ReplyDeleteAs I suggested previously, on your Mormon blog you should write articles concerning the Jehovah's Witnesses as well as the Latter-Day Saints.
You can find a entire new group of people to disagree with you. I am working on that as well, but with several groups.;)
Russ:)
I am not a necessarily pro birthday parties, and it matters not to me either way. However, if the party is held for someone you love, and you want them to know they are pretty special, it is a good thing! Parties do not need to be lavish! For children, having them invite two, three or four guests to enjoy the party with them and to have a special cake with candles and some ice cream -- WOW!
ReplyDeleteI do feel that the birth of baby Jesus was pretty special. Wise men came from lands afar bearing gifts. In all my years, when Christmas time came around each year, although I am now deaf, I really did enjoy the carol singing, the Scriptures about the event, because Jesus was such a very special person, healed the sick, taught so many about the Word of God, and did so many wonderful things, to celebrate his birthday is a good thing. I also remember the special time on that Good Friday on Calvary when the sky turned black and the earth shook, and the body of Jesus was put into the tomb, a stone was put at the entrance way and it was sealed! But as was predicted, Jesus arose on the third day. The stone had been rolled way from the tomb! Then for the next few weeks Jesus appeared to his special friends in a loving way. That first Easter truly was a very special day in history. So what is wrong with holding a birthday party if it is full of love and happy times.
I don't think birthday parties are passee. They will never go out of style!
I have heard of people who feel their birthdays are such a special occasion that they should not do any kind of work at all, but just enjoy the day and maybe go shopping! Somehow I think that is taking it a bit far!
So birthday celebrating will get my vote!
Parties do not need to be lavish! For children, having them invite two, three or four guests to enjoy the party with them and to have a special cake with candles and some ice cream -- WOW!
ReplyDeleteI don't think birthday parties are passee. They will never go out of style!
Common sense prevails!
I have heard of people who feel their birthdays are such a special occasion that they should not do any kind of work at all, but just enjoy the day and maybe go shopping! Somehow I think that is taking it a bit far!
So birthday celebrating will get my vote!
Hmm, I think I know whom you have in mind!
Thanks.
CURRENTLY AT MY place of work (the Hilton), as well as last week, we have a group of 100+ Jehovah's Witnesses (whom I commonly call Jehovah-with-an-I Witnesses) staying for the weekend.
ReplyDeleteThey really love their coffee. Let me just say that.
[That is all]
Hi Jacob, and thanks.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should let some of them know about our blogs.;)
Russ
Maybe all women, after celebrating their 29th birthday, should become Jehovah's Witnesses so they never celebrate another birthday again. That way, they can claim to be 29 for the rest of their life!
ReplyDeleteI have had pre-planned, organized debates with Jehovah's Witnesses twice.
ReplyDeleteOne time was 3 of them against me, sitting down at a table, all of us with our Bibles in hand. One of them was a black guy I used to work out with, and he had brought 2 'elders' to help him out with the debate. At the end, they conceded that I had gotten them on one point, which they could not refute. Nevertheless, they remained Jehovah's Witnesses, and did not repent and turn to Jesus. This shows that a person never comes to Christ through intellectual argument alone.
The second time was just several months ago, when 2 Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door, and we had a brief discussion, and agreed for them to return, for a more complete 'discussion,' a few days later. After emailing my church and asking for prayer for the upcoming meeting with the JWs, the newly-elected Elder commanded me not to meet with them, and if I did, I was in sin. Well, this turned into a huge problem, with the Pastor backing him, and them requesting to come to my house to 'rebuke' and 'discipline' me for my disobeying the Elder. It's a long story, but it led to me leaving that Baptist church, after days of intense prayer, seeking God about it, searching His Word, talking via phone and email and in person with both the Pastor and the Elder...and, in the midst of it all, being filled with the Holy Spirit, and having incredible peace and joy and confirmation from the Holy Spirit that I was doing the right thing.
After I left the church, they voted on an Elder-led church, leaving all decisions of the church up to the Elder and Pastor, with the congregation having no say in anything. This led to the church splitting and the Pastor quitting. Now half of the church is trying to bring a lawsuit against the other half. I suspect that all of this may be a result of God's judgment against that church.
Anyway, one of the JWs returned, and we had a nice 'discussion,' which ended with him having tears in his eyes, but refusing to repent and turn to Christ, because he refused to believe that his JW grandmother was now in Hell.
Thanks, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteI debated some Jehovah's Witnesses in the 1990s while I was at Bible school. They came to my house for a few years. They know a lot of their Bible, but read far too much into it.
Those phone calls sound disturbingly similar to my phone call with my former Pastor, and my email exchanges with the Elder...in fact, very similar. The "Judicial Meeting" that was mentioned sounds similar to what the Pastor and Elder wanted to have with me at my house. On the phone, the Pastor, at the end of the conversation, asked me, "So, are you breaking covenant fellowship with the church?" ...COVENANT FELLOWSHIP???... When did I make a "covenant" with the church?? Sure, I had joined the church, but when was a covenant made? This confused me, and I still don't really understand it.
ReplyDeleteThe stamp on the envelope in that 2nd video looks like 2 ninjas fighting with light sabers.
They know a lot of their Bible, but read far too much into it.
ReplyDeleteActually, they only know what they've been taught (via brainwashing), and they have pat, pre-programmed answers.
Thanks, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteI found that they did do some of their own studying, but they see everything through a Watchtower lens. Some of them do look up the Greek, but then pervert it when necessary. Objectivity in very difficult within a cult.
One time a friend and I were evangelizing door-to-door. We came to a Jehovah's Witness house, and the guy said, "I never heard of Baptists going door-to-door!"
ReplyDeleteWe talked to him for a long time, and from the start, he said, "Make this short, because I have to go to the restroom." Well, after talking to him for a long time, he was about to explode, so he finally ran to the bathroom, and we left.
Weeks or months later, my friend and I were going door-to-door again, and we came to that same guy's house again, not realizing it was a house we had already visited. When the guy opened the door and saw us, he exclaimed, "Not YOU guys again!" He refused to talk to us that time, claiming that he didn't have the time. I'm guessing he remembered the pain he went through the last time he talked to us, when he had to "hold it" so long. Personally, I figured it was revenge for all the JWs that have come to our door.
The JW that I debated with several months ago was also shocked that a Christian would go door-to-door. He couldn't believe that I had actually gone door-to-door along the block that runs perpendicular to my house. He thought that only JWs did that.
Unfortunately, he is largely correct. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons outdo Christians, when it comes to witnessing to the neighborhoods in our cities, by far. Most Christian churches seem to have little interest in this.
Years ago at a Mennonite church, I did door-to-door canvassing with others and a Jehovah's Witness we came across seemed quite offended.
ReplyDelete