Friday, August 01, 2008
Theology and Christ
Durham Cathedral, England
http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/2008/08/objections-to-christ.html
Recently I joined a brand new on-line Christian group for persons that have walked away from church, although I have not left church, and have no intention of leaving church. I joined this group at the request of the blogger that is a link. This group has an associated blog. On the blog an article was written suggesting that in the United States there is a tendency to obscure the simple teachings of Jesus with doctrines and theological systems.
From:
http://humanitas.typepad.com/sojourn/2008/07/the-simplicity.html
I noted in comments:
I am a member of a Presbyterian Church of the Reformed tradition. I have not walked away from church, but do reason that in many ways an understanding of Biblical theology has led me to accept that Reformed theology usually provides greater understanding than does evangelical, for example. I would prefer not to call myself evangelical, although there is overlap between Reformed and evangelical views.
The link and blogger answered by noting that theology was a human construct and therefore was prone to error.
I then commented:
There is theological error because there is sin and God has not yet purged us of all sin. We are close to Christ as our theology concerning Christ is correct and as we are guided by the Holy Spirit. We cannot properly focus on Christ without a proper theological understanding. Now this theology may be more practical than systematic in the beginning but a proper understanding of Biblical theology is important or else we risk having an understanding of Christ which is heavily influenced by the ideologies of persons which will be subject to error.
Theology is not just a human construct, but was revealed through the teaching of Old Testament writers, Christ and his New Testament writers.
The blogger stated his disagreement with my view. He deduces that I do not think theology is a human construct
What I had stated was:
Theology is not just a human construct, but was revealed through the teaching of Old Testament writers, Christ and his New Testament writers.
I then added:
Biblical theology is God working through human means, and so the theology is both divine and human.
I also noted in regard to the idea that theology is not simply the study of God:
No, theology is also studying the philosophy of God. This can be seen in the disciplines of Biblical theology, systematic and philosophical theology, and philosophy of religion. The theology/ philosophy of God, was revealed by the prophets, Christ and the apostles. Therefore theology is certainly not just a human construct without understanding that theology is revealed by God to persons in Scripture, and understanding this theology being led by God, the view of Christ can largely be a human construct. This is a reason why there are so many religious groups that claim to know Christ (Eastern Religion, LDS, and others) and yet do not understand or know who the Biblical Jesus is.
The blogger then mentioned that the disciples were not educated in contrast to the Pharisees that were theologians:
I noted:
And then there was Paul too, regenerated and educated, the scholar.:)
The blogger then comments that Paul left the things of the law behind for Christ.
I noted:
Agreed, good point. And the Lord used Paul and his abilities to teach corrective theology in contrast to the teaching of the Jewish leaders.
Romans for example, is a cornerstone of Christian theology.
End
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Thanks to Jim and Vicki for the photos.
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Hi Russ.
ReplyDeleteGood one again.
There are too many lazy believers about these days. Oops there goes another label. I do not like labels. My desire is that more Christians have a better understanding of "theology" so they might be able to more definitively explain what they believe.
Russell.
Thanks, Russell.
ReplyDeleteI do not like labels either, but there are different terms to describe various concepts and movements. I agree with your desire because Biblical theology must be understood well, to understand Christ well, while being guided by the Holy Spirit.
Russ:)
Ouch to the duck, getting squished by the pup!
ReplyDeleteIntersting site links, thanks. I haven't spent enough time at his site to see or follow the reasoning as yet, but I do also believe, that if there is no Biblical church within travelling distance, worshipping at home, (often with a group of friends) on a Lord's Day, is no different to the conventicles of the Scots reformation, because there was no suitable corporate church for them to attend. Some churches, for some people, couldn't attend most Churches without them partaking in what for themselves they would consider sinful practices and so wound their consciences. And its a bit self-defeating, when the object is to go there to praise God and Worship Him, that your wounding your conscience by attending a church locally that practices other things than you believe Biblical and that you can't in good conscience take part in. Any port in a storm, or the lesser of two evils, ie. attending church, (which you would consider be taking part in sin to do so in many churches) so that would be evil to you, the lesser evil is still even, and eveil should never be practiced so that good may come of it, is a very biblical teaching. I know this can be a bit controversial amongst some folks. I am house bound as you know and its not a personal issue for me. But if not for that, it would have been, where I am located. But by the same token, I'm not advocating anyone not attend church if there is one reachable, that they can do so in good conscience.
As I have stated before, I would participate in a house church rather than submitting to unbiblical leadership.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Deejay.
Russ:)
Hey Russ!
ReplyDeleteThanks for sharing the Sojourn link here. Good summary of our converation. :-) You left off my last statement however.
"Yep, you're right about Romans. Covers it all from creation, to the fall, to redemption."
We're actually studying Romans now in our small group. One could spend years just digging through the rich theology of that book.
www.wesojourn.org
You are welcome, Bill.
ReplyDeleteThe article was prescheduled to be published before you made the last statement, which I did not think directly dealt with the core issue of the debate as there was no disagreement on the point. Thanks for adding it though.
Cheers,
Russ:)
Dear Russ
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I left the Church almost a year ago, and guess what? . . . . we both agreed that we feel free, at last. Leaving the Church did not mean leaving God. In fact, the opposite is closer to the Truth. Our relationship with Church friends has not changed including many of the clergy and our interest in reading of scholars such as Fr. Richard Rohr, etc., etc., If we are to take the Divine Indwelling seriously we must begin by trusting our hearts - not our heads. I realize that for an academic this may not easy. For more (if interested)please visit
http://whenreligionfails.blogspot.com/
Interesting debate. Thanks for sharing!
ReplyDeleteThanks.
ReplyDeleteMy wife and I left the Church almost a year ago, and guess what? . . . . we both agreed that we feel free, at last.
It is reasonable that many persons feel free being apart from the Church, when they do not agree with many of the views, and/or do not like some of the things that occur.
My worldview development:
Biblically, God has elected/predestined me as a believer in grace (Ephesians 1, and Romans 8) to believe in Christ.
I have attended both liberal and conservative churches and academic institutions.
I have done many years of private study.
I have studied theodicy for ten years.
In conclusion, I have become a Christian theologian of the Reformed perspective.
If we are to take the Divine Indwelling seriously we must begin by trusting our hearts - not our heads.
I am sorry, but that is a major intellectual and spiritual mistake. Please read the following articles:
fideism
sentimental theology
I realize that for an academic this may not easy.
No, in fact as an academic it is still easier to be a fideist, and it is more difficult to trust in God and reason out different philosophy and theology in tension.
As far as the problem of evil, which is discussed on the blog you provided, is concerned, my MPhil and PhD theses are on theodicy and there are plenty of related articles on my thekingpin68 blog that you could read and comment on if you wish.
Religion fails that is not Biblical and led by God's Spirit. It also fails when it is primarily fideistic and sentimental and lacks the significant use of reason and reasonable faith.
An end result is degrees of error and confusion.
Thanks, for the kind comment.
Russ:)
Thanks, David.
ReplyDeletePlease keep an eye posted here my friend.
Russ:)
"...theology was a human construct and therefore was prone to error."
ReplyDeleteInteresting...of course, anything that the blogger suggests is true of God must therefore also be a "human construct". So what makes his/hers better than any "classical" theological formation? I think this is where there is such a problem with a hard "head/heart" distinction. Sure...the Spirit indwells us and we are to be submitted to His leading; but He certainly doesn't lead us contrary to the Word of God. But then again, I've just formed a "theological construct", so does that mean that I'm already probably wrong! :-)
"There is theological error because there is sin and God has not yet purged us of all sin."
You are correct, of course, and this is the reason why we need to study and come to Biblical conclusions with regard to theological content.
"No, theology is also studying the philosophy of God."
I really like your statement here. Sometimes people are put-off by the idea of "philosophy", as if it were somehow an illegitimate discipline and good only for "esoteric" enjoyment. Or people tend to think it's a bunch of gobbledygook! But Christianity is as much a "philosophical construct" as it is a "theological construct".
I know that Christianity is primarily concerned with "relationship", the restored relationship between God and His image-bearers (and the created order); but we only come to this relationship through the knowledge of God in Jesus Christ. And in this knowledge of God, we find theological understanding and philosophical understanding.
If philosophy is concerned with the meaning of life and other such "esoteric" ideas, then the Bible is the premier philosophical handbook--it tells us who we are and why we are! The meaning of life is answered by God in His Word!
Another good and thought-provoking post. Thanks Russ.
p.s. cool pictures once again. To be honest with you, I think the cat could take the two mutts! :-)
Interesting...of course, anything that the blogger suggests is true of God must therefore also be a "human construct". So what makes his/hers better than any "classical" theological formation?
ReplyDeleteA good point, and why would a human view of Christ be correct without the use of Biblically revealed theology that is understood and taught by followers?
But Christianity is as much a "philosophical construct" as it is a "theological construct".
Yes.
Thanks very much, GGM.
Happy Weekend.
I thought the dog was sitting on a cat.
ReplyDeleteThe scammers that keep bugging us, one day I will cut and paste their email and send a letter to them like they do to me. Rick b
Yes, one would think the scammers would become a little more original over time.
ReplyDeleteCheers, Rick.
Russ
Russ,
ReplyDeleteFirst, the idea of theology being a human "construct" is agreed on from your perspective.
I find the Apostle Paul as being one who often announces a distinction in his thoughts, verses the thoughts of the Lord. Paul was given the word of the Lord through his childhood education. I believe the Lord used the word he memorized (The entire Old Testament of his day) and would say remember this verse. Or, maybe even call Paul's attention to a verse and elaborate on it with Paul.
So, yes. The word of the Lord is both given by The Lord and man. But, not with out the Lord's involvement. In otherwords, The Lord could be quoted. Or, Paul could explain what the message was from the Lord. If not, Paul would not have need to clarify his statements. He would not have need to say, "This is me talking".
I was wondering which pictures you would use. My wife and I received them from my cousin.
First, the idea of theology being a human "construct" is agreed on from your perspective.
ReplyDeleteBiblical theology is revealed to persons by God, writing the Scripture, as in Biblical inspiration, and to those reading the Scripture.
I read a commentator once that suggested God directly spoke to Paul with some instructions and some came through inspiration. Both would be Scriptural when written down.
Thanks, Jim.
Rick, you should check out this Scam-Baiting website, there's some hilarious e-mail exchanges between baiters & scammers!
ReplyDeleteI still think the Russian/Slavic date scammers are generally the most entertaining.
ReplyDeletei don't attend church anymore, i tried many but I just feel happier and lighter without it. I prefer to read the Bible and decipher what it means to me and my life. By the way is that dog sitting on another animal?!
ReplyDeleteI can't remember if I left a comment that will be waiting for moderation. My computer started acting up as I was commenting and I don't remember it I pushed publish or not. Anyway, I will try again.
ReplyDelete"Therefore theology is certainly not just a human construct without understanding that theology is revealed by God to persons in Scripture, and understanding this theology being led by God, the view of Christ can largely be a human construct."
I totally agree with that and your points. You argued it well.
Thank you for your concern regarding my video. I surprised myself a little bit with the video. I am trying to circumvent the brutalness with heavy comment moderation. Yay censorship! :)
About theology, I really like the book "Back to Basics: Rediscovering the Richness of the Reformed Faith." Have you read it and/or do you have any suggested reading?
Hello, Kait.
ReplyDeleteIn the 1990s after I left a Mennonite church, I went through a period of a few years of not attending a church regularly. When I went to the UK I attended two churches regularly. It was not until the 2000s that I started attending my present church and joined. I now realize that I will likely only join a church of the Reformed tradition from now on.
Thanks, Kait.
Thanks, Odd Facts, and all the best with You Tube!
ReplyDeleteAbout theology, I really like the book "Back to Basics: Rediscovering the Richness of the Reformed Faith." Have you read it and/or do you have any suggested reading?
I have not read it, sorry.
I would suggest John Calvin's Bondage and Liberation of the Will, and Institutes. I also would recommend Millard Erickson's Christian Theology.
Russ:)
Good old John Calvin. I remember trying to read his Institutes when I was 13. I should probably try again. Google book search has the full book.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Theology, my understanding is that there is both good theology and bad theology, so not all theology that is taught or written about is biblical. There is liberal theology as well as biblical theology.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, biblical illiteracy is rampant, at least in the U.S. Many Christians seem to get their spiritual teaching from televangelists on TV or in books, which is often filled with much false doctrine.
So, a personal and deep study of Scripture is badly needed by most Christians, at least in the U.S., I think.
Well, you must be a brain, trying to read Calvin at 13, good for you.
ReplyDeleteRuss:)
so not all theology that is taught or written about is biblical.
ReplyDeleteYes, sin and a lack of proper understanding leads to bad theology.
Russ:)
Thank you for such interesting blog ideas and debates, always great reads, cheers!
ReplyDelete-Blogger Fan-
Thank you, Blogger Fan.
ReplyDeleteOK, I just thought of a silly question: Why does the Bible say that drunkenness is a sin, when it keeps saying that "He brews" and keeps talking about "Beer Sheba" and about how Jesus turned water into wine?
ReplyDeleteOkay, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteNo more drinks tonight in warm and humid Florida, for you.
Thanks,
Russ:)
Great post.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed it alot.
Your blog is great.
I have added it to my favorites.
Thank you, Preacherman.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate the friendly comments.
This blog aims to provide academic theology and satire.
Russ;)