I was just discussing with someone on Facebook, basically about Christophanies in the Old Testament. She was mainly talking about Genesis 18, and saying that one is called "Yahweh," whereas the other two visitors are called angels. She said the one called "Yahweh" is Jesus. I was saying that a number of theologians have interpreted it that way, but I don't consider Christophanies to be something we can be dogmatic about. (I also read that Christophanies are generally non-physical [i.e., spiritual], though not visions, either.) But she went further and said that, because the 'visitors' were able to eat and drink, then Jesus must have had a human body then. I said that angels in the Old Testament did sometimes take on the form/appearance of humans, and therefore, it is (theoretically) possible that Jesus could have temporarily taken on human flesh (assuming that one of the three visitors was indeed Jesus), but that Jesus did not 'take on flesh,' so-to-speak, until He was born as a baby. She then referred to Rev. 13:8, where it says, "the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world," and said that Jesus had flesh from the foundations of the world. I said that Rev. 13:8 was an interesting verse, because it cannot mean that Jesus was crucified on the cross when the earth was created. I also mentioned that in my (NIV) Study Bible, it says in the footnotes for Rev. 13:8, "Or, 'written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain," which makes a whole lot more sense.
So, thoughts on Gen. 18 being Jesus and taking on flesh? And on Rev. 13:8, "the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world?"
Meanwhile, I have been studying Rev. 13:8, and I replied to that girl with this:
Regarding Revelation 13:8, first, one possibility (though one that doesn't seem highly likely to me) is that you might say that the meaning is similar to 1 Peter 1:19-20: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." That verse is not saying that Jesus died before the foundation of the world, but rather that his death was planned before the foundation of the world. This makes more sense than Jesus (the Lamb) being slain from the foundation of the world, which contradicts all four gospels.
But what seems to really make sense to me is this: First, let me write out Revelation 13:8: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
OK, so it seems to me to be a difficulty with translation, especially since punctuation marks were not originally used. Let me explain.
The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English translates the Greek of Revelation 13:8 literally as, "And will worship him all the [ones] dwelling on the earth, of/whom has not been written the name 'of him' in the scroll - of life of the Lamb - 'having been' slain from [the] foundation of [the] world."
Now, Revelation 17:8 has similar language. The same Greek literal translation says, in part, "...the [ones] dwelling on the earth, of whom has not been written the name on the scroll - of life from [the] foundation of [the] world..." That portion of the verse is worded very similarly to what Revelation 13:8 says when translated literally.
Now, look at another verse. The KJV translates Revelation 17:8 as, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
So notice that the KJV in Revelation 17:8 translates it as, "...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..." Even though the literal Greek is worded almost exactly the same as Revelation 13:8, it is talking about the names of those who are not part of the Elect not being written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. So it's talking about names of people that were not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
So, going back to Revelation 13:8, if we just add two parentheses, it all makes a whole lot more sense. First, if we take the literal translation straight from the Greek:
"And will worship him all the [ones] dwelling on the earth, of/whom has not been written the name 'of him' in the scroll - of life (of the Lamb - 'having been' slain) from [the] foundation of [the] world."
And we can do the same with the KJV: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life (of the Lamb slain) from the foundation of the world."
You could also use brackets: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life [of the Lamb slain] from the foundation of the world."
Or, instead of parentheses or brackets, you could just use commas, and once again, it then makes a lot more sense: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life, of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world."
Remember that, in the original, there were no punctuation marks, which could make it hard for us to know sometimes where the punctuation marks should go, when we translate it to English.
So then, when we read it with those pauses, it is not saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, but it's talking about the names of people that have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (in other words, those who will spend eternity in Hell). This is the flip-side of Ephesians 1:4---"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."
'Wow, two videos giving the shove-off to poor Martha and Edith, and calling them "way, way too old..."
You big meanie...old people need lovin' too!
;)'
That is just the way of the web today, you know that massive elderly female demographic on Blogger, Facebook and Google+. I am bound to get checked out...
Templates are good for more than just the occasional party invitation. They can help you build study skills, make your documents impressive, and express your creativity, too. Learn how to use templates to avoid the frustration of the blank page.
Now you can manage PCs and mobile devices with one unified solution, giving your employees more freedom to access the corporate network. Try it for free for 30 days.
I haven't got time to write you a LONG drawn out email telling why you'd be STUPID not to join me on the live webinar I'm holding @ 3pm (EST) today.
So I won't...
Get more info here
I'm busy putting the finishing touches on what I feel is going to be the biggest shock of 2013.
I've always loved controversy, ever since I launched my first ever book called "The Gurus Dream" all those years ago where I slated all the "Gurus" online.
Today On 4th December 2013 - Things Are NO DIFFERENT.
*The prayer: Father, Thank You for each and every day You have blessed us here on earth. Thank You for Your tender mercies. Thank You for giving us friends and family to share these Internet joys with. I ask You to bless my friends, relatives and those I care deeply for, who are reading this right now. Where there is joy, give them continued joy, Where there is pain, give them your peace and mercy. Where there is self-doubt, release a renewed confidence. Where there is need, fulfill their needs. Bless their homes, families, finances, their goings and their comings. In Jesus' name, Amen.
How they are so a whole lot more per type accessories. the fake ones always carrying identical cost like that is similar to the authentic ones, admission asks for few of hotter compared to winter.
This email is being sent to notify you that we have received a request to remove the following record from our mailing list:
Name: 'r. Ru...... Murray Email: rnmwales@shaw.ca
This record has automatically been removed from our online database and will also be removed from any backup files shortly.
If you do receive further unwanted email from our system, please let us know using any of the contact information below and we'd be happy to address the issue immediately.
Kool to have more Brahms and Stravinsky email alarms custom produced (clips from my CD collection and the odd MP3). My jazz-fusion, progressive rock and art rock clips are very good too, but a little loud in the early morning/late night at times.;)
Тhus, it?s incredibly important to hav? a suitable nutritious diet system ?? that you have ? healthy ?nd high-quality overall body. Moms ?nd dads really ?hould act ass positive ?nd healthy position designs in stopping consuming problems.
Great picture selection Russ! It is a very bright time of the year :)
ReplyDeleteThank you, Birute.
ReplyDeleteHave an excellent Christmas season with the family.
Russ:)
We stumbled over here from a different page and thought
ReplyDeleteI should check things out. I like what I see so now i'm following you.
Look forward to exploring your web page for a second time.
solar panel work at home institute scam votre avis sur consumer panel institute
ReplyDelete'institute scam'
ReplyDeleteGenius copyright...
I hope this post gets some attention...
ReplyDeleteIt is Christmas time.
Well, here that starts November 1 for some, but you get my (snow) drift...
Russian Xmas Treat?
ReplyDeleteUrgent! Closing in 3 hours... Don't miss out
ReplyDeleteSuccessful Money Transfer!
ReplyDeletePleasant surprise for YOU!
Unannounced Bonuses
ReplyDeleteSanta Claus (Saint Nicholas) and Internet Marketing...
ReplyDeleteTwo largely fictionalized entities.
I was just discussing with someone on Facebook, basically about Christophanies in the Old Testament. She was mainly talking about Genesis 18, and saying that one is called "Yahweh," whereas the other two visitors are called angels. She said the one called "Yahweh" is Jesus. I was saying that a number of theologians have interpreted it that way, but I don't consider Christophanies to be something we can be dogmatic about. (I also read that Christophanies are generally non-physical [i.e., spiritual], though not visions, either.) But she went further and said that, because the 'visitors' were able to eat and drink, then Jesus must have had a human body then. I said that angels in the Old Testament did sometimes take on the form/appearance of humans, and therefore, it is (theoretically) possible that Jesus could have temporarily taken on human flesh (assuming that one of the three visitors was indeed Jesus), but that Jesus did not 'take on flesh,' so-to-speak, until He was born as a baby. She then referred to Rev. 13:8, where it says, "the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world," and said that Jesus had flesh from the foundations of the world. I said that Rev. 13:8 was an interesting verse, because it cannot mean that Jesus was crucified on the cross when the earth was created. I also mentioned that in my (NIV) Study Bible, it says in the footnotes for Rev. 13:8, "Or, 'written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain," which makes a whole lot more sense.
ReplyDeleteSo, thoughts on Gen. 18 being Jesus and taking on flesh? And on Rev. 13:8, "the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world?"
Wow, two videos giving the shove-off to poor Martha and Edith, and calling them "way, way too old..."
ReplyDeleteYou big meanie...old people need lovin' too!
;)
Mom said ---
ReplyDeleteNow if I could only hear what is being said. --------
Meanwhile, I have been studying Rev. 13:8, and I replied to that girl with this:
ReplyDeleteRegarding Revelation 13:8, first, one possibility (though one that doesn't seem highly likely to me) is that you might say that the meaning is similar to 1 Peter 1:19-20: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you." That verse is not saying that Jesus died before the foundation of the world, but rather that his death was planned before the foundation of the world. This makes more sense than Jesus (the Lamb) being slain from the foundation of the world, which contradicts all four gospels.
But what seems to really make sense to me is this: First, let me write out Revelation 13:8: "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
OK, so it seems to me to be a difficulty with translation, especially since punctuation marks were not originally used. Let me explain.
The Zondervan Parallel New Testament in Greek and English translates the Greek of Revelation 13:8 literally as, "And will worship him all the [ones] dwelling on the earth, of/whom has not been written the name 'of him' in the scroll - of life of the Lamb - 'having been' slain from [the] foundation of [the] world."
Now, Revelation 17:8 has similar language. The same Greek literal translation says, in part, "...the [ones] dwelling on the earth, of whom has not been written the name on the scroll - of life from [the] foundation of [the] world..." That portion of the verse is worded very similarly to what Revelation 13:8 says when translated literally.
Now, look at another verse. The KJV translates Revelation 17:8 as, "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."
So notice that the KJV in Revelation 17:8 translates it as, "...whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world..." Even though the literal Greek is worded almost exactly the same as Revelation 13:8, it is talking about the names of those who are not part of the Elect not being written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. So it's talking about names of people that were not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.
(cont.)
(cont.)
ReplyDeleteSo, going back to Revelation 13:8, if we just add two parentheses, it all makes a whole lot more sense. First, if we take the literal translation straight from the Greek:
"And will worship him all the [ones] dwelling on the earth, of/whom has not been written the name 'of him' in the scroll - of life (of the Lamb - 'having been' slain) from [the] foundation of [the] world."
And we can do the same with the KJV:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life (of the Lamb slain) from the foundation of the world."
You could also use brackets:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life [of the Lamb slain] from the foundation of the world."
Or, instead of parentheses or brackets, you could just use commas, and once again, it then makes a lot more sense:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life, of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world."
Remember that, in the original, there were no punctuation marks, which could make it hard for us to know sometimes where the punctuation marks should go, when we translate it to English.
So then, when we read it with those pauses, it is not saying that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, but it's talking about the names of people that have not been written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world (in other words, those who will spend eternity in Hell). This is the flip-side of Ephesians 1:4---"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."
ReplyDeleteAppreciate the recommendation. Let me try it out.
'I was saying that a number of theologians have interpreted it that way, but I don't consider Christophanies to be something we can be dogmatic about'
ReplyDeleteI think you handled it well...
'Wow, two videos giving the shove-off to poor Martha and Edith, and calling them "way, way too old..."
ReplyDeleteYou big meanie...old people need lovin' too!
;)'
That is just the way of the web today, you know that massive elderly female demographic on Blogger, Facebook and Google+. I am bound to get checked out...
Like at the library in the 1940s...
'Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMom said ---
Now if I could only hear what is being said. --------'
I mentioned it was Christmas time and noted the fan club.
No point mentioning who they are as she might wonder who Edith and Martha are...
And there is Ethel, Gertrude, Freda, etc...
ReplyDeleteGood research, Jeff.
God's salvation plan is eternal, as is God. A plan in the mind of the eternal God.
The atonement took place within time.
I notice Satire and Theology has one more Google+ follower today and Dr. Russell Norman Murray blog one less Google+ follower.
ReplyDeleteI would not put it past someone to cancel me out on one, because of the add on other...sigh.
ReplyDeleteTemplates are good for more than just the occasional party invitation. They can help you build study skills, make your documents impressive, and express your creativity, too. Learn how to use templates to avoid the frustration of the blank page.
ReplyDeleteNow you can manage PCs and mobile devices with one unified solution, giving your employees more freedom to access the corporate network. Try it for free for 30 days.
A Not So Polite Reminder [Live Webinar]
ReplyDeleteI haven't got time to write you a LONG drawn out
email telling why you'd be STUPID not to join me
on the live webinar I'm holding @ 3pm (EST) today.
So I won't...
Get more info here
I'm busy putting the finishing touches on what I
feel is going to be the biggest shock of 2013.
I've always loved controversy, ever since I launched
my first ever book called "The Gurus Dream" all those
years ago where I slated all the "Gurus" online.
Today On 4th December 2013 - Things Are NO DIFFERENT.
See you in a couple hours...
'I haven't got time to write you a LONG drawn out
ReplyDeleteemail telling why you'd be STUPID not to join me
on the live webinar I'm holding @ 3pm (EST) today.'
Good news...
you no deposit
ReplyDeleteChristmas to me
ReplyDeletecan you answer these 3 questions?
ReplyDeleteEating Alkaline to Maximize Your Health
ReplyDeleteHmm, love chomping down those double a, triple a and c batteries, munchcrunchmunchcrunch...mmm.
ReplyDeleteGives me my electric personality.
You have received [1] pending new product
ReplyDeletetransfer into your account
==> Please click here to confirm access
ReplyDeleteThis is best method to work online taking surveys: tinyurl.com/lpmlwcv , make $3000 per month more or less
'make $3000 per month more or less'
ReplyDelete'less'
Blonde corn maze
ReplyDelete
ReplyDelete*The prayer: Father, Thank You for each and every day You have blessed us here on earth. Thank You for Your tender mercies. Thank You for giving us friends and family to share these Internet joys with. I ask You to bless my friends, relatives and those I care deeply for, who are reading this right now. Where there is joy, give them continued joy, Where there is pain, give them your peace and mercy. Where there is self-doubt, release a renewed confidence. Where there is need, fulfill their needs. Bless their homes, families, finances, their goings and their comings. In Jesus' name, Amen.
'Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteBlonde corn maze'
Not what I expected and did not amuse me, sorry.:)
Reasonable prayer...
Kids and pets, adorable
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteHow they are so a whole lot more per type accessories. the fake ones always carrying identical cost like that is similar to the authentic ones, admission asks for few of hotter compared to winter.
We never mention fakes on here...
ReplyDeleteHello 'r. Ru...... Murray,
ReplyDeleteThis email is being sent to notify you that we have received a request to remove the following record from our mailing list:
Name: 'r. Ru...... Murray
Email: rnmwales@shaw.ca
This record has automatically been removed from our online database and will also be removed from any backup files shortly.
If you do receive further unwanted email from our system, please let us know using any of the contact information below and we'd be happy to address the issue immediately.
Get It, LLC
Send Christmas Cards on Facebook
ReplyDelete'Hello 'r. Ru...... Murray,'
ReplyDeleteBizarre...
Facebook is in...
ReplyDeleteAt least in BC, Christmas cards are in with seniors...
Kool to have more Brahms and Stravinsky email alarms custom produced (clips from my CD collection and the odd MP3). My jazz-fusion, progressive rock and art rock clips are very good too, but a little loud in the early morning/late night at times.;)
ReplyDeleteТhus, it?s incredibly important to hav? a suitable nutritious diet system ??
ReplyDeletethat you have ? healthy ?nd high-quality overall body.
Moms ?nd dads really ?hould act ass positive ?nd healthy position designs in stopping consuming
problems.
ESL training needed...
ReplyDelete