Essex (photo from trekearth.com)
http://thekingpin68.blogspot.com/2008/05/number-one-faq.html
The Archie Comics version, courtesy of Jeff Jenkins: Thoughts and Theology in my links.
The Marvel Comics version.
From 1991 to 1995 I attended a Mennonite Bible school. Much of the teaching was very good and I am appreciative of earning that first degree and interacting with professors that were fine human beings, by God’s grace.
A doctrine of non-resistance was taught at the school. I reasoned, and still reason that Romans 13 allows that state to use force against lawbreakers in order to maintain law and order. Mounce (1995: 243-244). God has divinely appointed the governing authorities. Cranfield (1992: 322). Governments do sometimes overstep God’s given boundaries, and in these cases Christians cannot obey the state. Mounce (1995: 243). Christians are not to take vengeance into their own hands. Mounce (1995: 241). Vengeance against evil actions will be up to God to administer, if he so wishes, and the state can be used in the process concerning legal matters. I reason that Christians can participate in the legitimate use of force to maintain law and order within both police and military forces.
A Mennonite Greek professor taught that Christians should never resist physical evil in the sense of hurting or killing an attacker since the attacker was likely unsaved. The Christian could however, stand in the way of an attacker for the sake of another. Since the Christian was saved and would be part of the culminated Kingdom of God, if killed, he/she should sacrifice himself/herself as a witness in hopes the attacker would turn to Christ. Although Biblically there is a place for martyrdom, there is also no solid Biblical reason to simply give up a life to the assailant for the sake of the attacker. I could counter that by allowing an attacker to commit violence against self and others that the violence will increase as future victims will be impacted. A greater problem of evil will likely occur. I think self-defence within the law is a reasonable Christian action and not the same as vengeance. Self-defence is attempting to prevent law and order from being disrupted when an official of the state is not present to do the job, while vengeance would be seeking ultimate justice for one self or others after the crime as been committed. Legal vengeance and justice should be issued by the state, and ultimate vengeance is in the hands of God. The Christian should not seek personal vengeance.
Another Mennonite professor and personal friend told me after two guys tried to intimidate me outside of a mall in 1994, that I should have attempted to witness to them rather than fight them in self-defence if needed. I had managed to walk away from the incident and the one punk tracked me down and spit on my car as I drove away. He did not have the guts earlier to throw a punch at me even with his friend by his side. He had threatened to shoot me…what a man.
Let us take the philosophy of my professor to the satire zone:
Perhaps an interview could be done with a thug or thugs in the process of trying to hurt and possibly kill me. This could be very helpful for an original post and I could try to get up to number 1 on Traffic Jam in the Religion and Spirituality category, if I lived.
My blog headline could read:
1. I witnessed to a guy while he stabbed me!
2. I witnessed to this thug before I beat him with my Bible
3. Repent and follow Christ or I will choke you out...Rick B's fav
Rick B can be found at:
http://fun-foodandfighting.blogspot.com/
http://mormonismreviewed.blogspot.com/
4. Evangelize while fighting, details inside
5. A mugger stole my wallet and went to Hawaii on my Visa, and all I got was this lousy blog article
6. The blood of Christ meets the blood of the thug I just beat with the club I conceal under my jacket when I go for walks
Ernest Angley method: Use an open hand technique to the forehead of your attacker and yell…
7. Demon (Daemen) of mugging come out!
8. A thug shot me in the heart, while Jesus touched his heart
For Roman Catholics.
9. I attempted to perform an exorcism on my attacker and the last rites on myself at the same time!
10. Christians: Buy hardcover rather than soft-cover Bibles; they are more useful in street fights
CRANFIELD, C.E.B. (1992) Romans: A Shorter Commentary, Grand Rapids, William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
MOUNCE, ROBERT H. (1995) The New American Commentary: Romans Nashville, Broadman & Holman Publishers.
I think I key point to remember in a discussion like this is that our faith manifests itself in deeds. I'm not a pacifist, and so I justify certain acts of defense, and perhaps that can be brought down to a one-on-one conflict like you were potentially faced with. But we don't necessarily need to be spouting Scripture in their face so much as we need to show them the love of Christ. Now, how we do that is open for interpretation, I admit, and perhaps my ambiguity is a cop-out. But it's a tricky question. :)
ReplyDeleteFunny stuff! Here's my Lutheran attempt:
ReplyDelete1. Because "drowning the old Adam" ain't just a metaphor
2. His sins were covered when the real presence of my fist met his face.
Ah, the testosterone doth freely flow in this post. :-)
Now that was interesting but also funny. I agree that in a situation where physical harm is about to happen that yes, we should protect ourselves & fight back if we can't get away (unless of course you know that you know God is saying different). And sure there may be room for witnessing in an intense situation but physical safety is priority. It's pretty gross but I often thought that if a bad guy tried to get me & I knew it wasn't going to be good that I would definitely try to poke the persons eyes out & fight with all my might & probably do alot of biting. Now does that make me any less holy or disobedient to the teachings of Christ?? I think not!
ReplyDeletehere are some thoughts I have on this issue.
ReplyDelete1. The Bible tells us God is a warrior. if God can fight and He did fight in the Bible then so can I/we
2. God was the first person to declare war. He declared war upon Satan.
3. Jesus told his disaples to Buy a sword. what are swords used for? close combat fighting.
4. Jesus, Peter, Paul and the rest of the gang never rebuke the trained roman solidars, and said, no more fighting.
5. Jesus said turn the other Cheek, This was used for when you were insulted. Insulsts are nothing.
6. lets say you see a women being rapen in a dark ally, do you let her get raped? or do you step in to help? if you step into help, it would seem you would need to use force and maybe even hurt the person since simply telling them to stop would not work.
7. If a guy breaks into your house and try to take your Child so he can sexualy abuse them, do you use force to stop this person, or do you simply tell your child, Turn the other cheek and share Jesus with them.
Lastly, I will use force to the point someone might die. I figure at the very least, if people think I am wrong, them I say, allow your wife or Child to get raped or killed while you pray for a spine and learn to be a man.
some times peace can only come with force. Like if your being attacked, are you at peace or living in peace? not if your being attacked. But use force to stop the attack and then you will have peace. rick b
But we don't necessarily need to be spouting Scripture in their face so much as we need to show them the love of Christ.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree, Jake. I reason love can consist of trying to prevent violence, and can also consist of standing against violence, but both are indeed tricky.
Thanks, Adam.
ReplyDeleteYou should consider writing a similar post on your blog.
Very good.:)
1. Because "drowning the old Adam" ain't just a metaphor
Lol.
Thanks, Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteIf someone if trying to serious hurt or kill you, I reason you have the right to use the force required to protect yourself. Yes, there is a time for martyrdom within God's will, but this will not be typical.
Russ:)
3. Jesus told his disaples to Buy a sword. what are swords used for? close combat fighting.
ReplyDeleteExcellent point. My Mennonite Greek professor tried rather unsuccessfully to explain his way out of that one. He attempted to twist it to state the opposite, seems to me.
But use force to stop the attack and then you will have peace.
Yes, this is often true in the fallen world.
Cheers, Rick.:)
Great Comic Book Covers!
ReplyDeleteI agree that retaliation is not an option for Christians, However, "Loving your neighbor as yourself" can mean protecting them in the face of danger even if the danger is in the form of human oppression and wickedness, thus physical intervention.
-Do Unto Others...Dude-
Dude, thanks for the common sense reply.
ReplyDeleteBut we don't necessarily need to be spouting Scripture in their face so much as we need to show them the love of Christ.
ReplyDeletesometimes Showing the Love of Christ or even quoting Scripture will not stop an attack.
Look at this, Jesus showed the Love of God, yet He was killed, and the Apostls showed the Love of Christ and most were killed. Even many believers down over the years were killed. Call it maryterdem or life, but I will stand and fight. Rick b
Agreed Rick, love in many cases will not prevent violence. But as Christians we should love at all times. Even in acts of self-defence, we should hope and pray that we perform actions without sinful motives, as much as is possible for corrupt creatures.
ReplyDeleteI would have a very difficult time submitting to martyrdom. I would rather fight and be killed by several soldiers than be tortured and humiliated. However, if God places me in a situation of martyrdom, I hope I am obedient in God's will. There is no guarantee I could always avoid martyrdom in every situation. I could, for example, be knocked out and not even allowed to resist.
Those blog headlines are hilarious! I think my favorite is:
ReplyDelete"10. Christians: Buy hardcover rather than soft-cover Bibles; they are more useful in street fights."
Actually, I've heard stories more than once where a pocket Bible stopped a bullet!
Rick B brought up a verse that made me stop and think:
"But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." (Matt. 5:39, NASB)
also:
"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either. Give to everyone who asks of you, and whoever takes away what is yours, do not demand it back." (Luke 6:29,30)
Regarding 5:39, the People's New Testament says:
"Jesus does not forbid the judicial application of the law, but personal revenge, such as was common among the Jews. Instead of turning upon those who injure us, and becoming a party to personal broils, it is the duty of Christians to suffer meekly.
Turn to him the other. This must be the Christian spirit, the great law of love, which endureth all things (1Co 13:7). This is not a code to be slavishly observed in the letter, but its spirit must always be preserved. For the application, see Joh 18:22 Ac 23:3."
The Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right check, turn to him the other also-Our Lord's own meek, yet dignified bearing, when smitten rudely on the cheek (Joh 18:22, 23), and not literally presenting the other, is the best comment on these words. It is the preparedness, after one indignity, not to invite but to submit meekly to another, without retaliation, which this strong language is meant to convey."
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary says:
"The plain instruction is, Suffer any injury that can be borne, for the sake of peace, committing your concerns to the Lord's keeping. And the sum of all is, that Christians must avoid disputing and striving. If any say, Flesh and blood cannot pass by such an affront, let them remember, that flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of God; and those who act upon right principles will have most peace and comfort."
I know you're talking mainly about self-defense, as well as defending family and loved ones, but I just can't resist this chance to relate a brief portion of the kind of Christian I only wish I was, in regards to how these people reacted when being martyred. This is a level of Christianity that I cannot even comprehend:
ReplyDeletePages 33-38 of Foxe's Book of Martyrs (written over 400 years ago) talks about Romanus. He said, "Thy sentence, O prefect, I joyfully embrace; I refuse not to be sacrificed for my brethren, and that by as cruel means as thou mayest invent." Then he was whipped "with knaps of lead at the ends." "Instead of tears, sighs, and groans, Romanus sang psalms all the time of his whipping, requiring them not to favour him for nobility's sake. 'Not the blood of my progenitors,' said he, 'but Christian profession maketh me noble. The wholesome words of the martyr were as oil to the fire of the prefect's fury. The more the martyr spake, the madder was he, insomuch that he commanded the martyr's sides to be lanced with knives, until the bones appeared white again."
"...Asclepiades commanded the tormentors to strike Romanus on the mouth, that his teeth being stricken out, his pronunciation at leastwise might be impaired. The commandment was obeyed, his face buffeted, his eyelids torn with their nails, his cheeks scotched with knives; the skin of his beard was plucked by little and little from the flesh; finally, his seemly face was wholly defaced. The meek martyr said, 'I thank thee, O prefect, that thou hast opened unto me many mouths, whereby I may preach my Lord and Savior Christ. Look; how many wounds I have, so many mouths I have lauding and praising God.'
The prefect astonished with this singular constancy, commanded them to cease from the tortures. He threateneth cruel fire, he revileth the noble martyr, he blasphemeth God, saying, 'Thy crucified Christ is but a yesterday's God; the gods of the Gentiles are of most antiquity.'
Here again Romanus, taking good occasion, made a long oration of the eternity of Christ, of His human nature, of the death and satisfaction of Christ for all mankind. Which done, he said, 'Give me a child, O prefect, but seven years of age, which age is free from malice and other vices wherewith riper age is commonly infected, and thou shalt hear what he will say.' His request was granted.
A little boy was called out of the multitude, and set before him. 'Tell me, my babe,' quoth the martyr, 'whether thou think it reason that we should worship one Christ, and in Christ one Father, or else that we worship many gods?'
Unto whom the babe answered, 'That certainly (whatsoever it be) which mean affirm to be God, must needs be one; and that which pertains to that one, is unique: and inasmuch as Christ is unique, of necessity Christ must be the true God; for that there be many gods, we children cannot believe.'
The prefect hereat clean amazed, said, 'Thou young villain and traitor, where, as of whom learnedst thou this lesson?'
'Of my mother,' quoth the child, 'with whose milk I sucked in this lesson, that I must believe in Christ.' The mother was called, and she gladly appeared. The prefect commanded the child to be hoisted up and scourged. The pitiful beholders of this pitiless act, could not temper themselves from tears: the joyful and glad mother alone stood by with dry cheeks. Yea, she rebuked her sweet babe for craving a draught of cold water: she charged him to thirst after the cup that the infants of Bethlehem once drank of, forgetting their mothers' milk and paps; she willed him to remember little Isaac, who, beholding the sword wherewith, and the altar whereon, he should be sacrificed, willingly proffered his tender neck to the dint of his father's sword. Whilst this council was in giving, the butcherly tormentor plucked the skin from the crown of his head, hair and all. The mother cried, 'Suffer, my child! anon thou shalt pass to Him that will adorn thy naked head with a crown of eternal glory.' The mother counselleth, the child is counselled; the mother encourageth, the babe is encouraged, and receiveth the stripes with smiling countenance.
The prefect perceiving the child invincible, and himself vanquished, committeth the blessed babe to the stinking prison, commanding the torments of Romanus to be renewed and increased, as chief author of this evil.
Thus was Romanus brought forth again to new stripes, the punishments to be renewed and received again upon his old sores. No longer could the tyrant forbear, but needs he must draw nearer to the sentence of death. 'Is it painful to thee,' saith he, 'to tarry so long alive? A flaming fire, doubt thou not, shall be prepared for thee by and by, wherein thou and that boy, thy fellow in rebellion, shall be consumed into ashes.' Romanus and the babe were led to execution. When they were come to the place, the tormentors required the child of the mother, for she had taken it up in her arms; and she, only kissing it, delivered the babe. 'Farewell,' she said, 'my sweet child; and when thou hast entered the kingdom of Christ, there in thy blest estate remember thy mother.' And as the hangman applied his sword to the babe's neck, she sang on this manner:
All laud and praise with heart and voice,
O Lord, we yield to thee:
To whom the death of this thy saint,
We know most dear to be.
The innocent's head being cut off, the mother wrapped it up in her garment, and laid it on her breast. On the other side a mighty fire was made, whereinto Romanus was cast, whereupon a great storm arose and quenched the fire. The prefect at length being confounded with the fortitude and courage of the martyr, straitly commanded him to be brought back into the prison, and there to be strangled."
Regarding 5:39, the People's New Testament says:
ReplyDelete"Jesus does not forbid the judicial application of the law, but personal revenge, such as was common among the Jews. Instead of turning upon those who injure us, and becoming a party to personal broils, it is the duty of Christians to suffer meekly.
Turn to him the other.
This is similar to my findings.
Foxe's Book of Martyrs is a very interesting text. You present an example of the evil committed by the state against those with a contrasting worldview. Two persons that publicly proclaimed Christ were unjustly executed.
Thanks Jeff.
I say call down 10,000 angels and let the attacker deal with them!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Joey.
ReplyDeleteIf God would do that for me, fantastic. I would be happy with one angel.
I would not count on a miracle in a violent situation, although God can provide as he wishes.
Russ:)
Check this out:
ReplyDelete"Lavelle, a black 77-year-old businessman, runs the Dwelling House Savings & Loan and Lavelle Real Estate in Pittsburgh. Both businesses are located in that city’s tough Hill District, where the major business is usually drugs. Despite the neighborhood, neither business has the standard metal grille to protect it from thieves. Lavelle believes that would send the wrong message to the neighborhood’s inhabitants.
"They’re the only businesses in the poor black community of Pittsburgh, and maybe the country, that don’t have one," he points out. "But you see, if I put that grille around me, I’d be telling this community that I’m afraid of them, that I don’t trust them. I’m not afraid of them, and I do trust them. I’m trying to help them see that. Because I love them, I trust them. My very vulnerability is my protection."
Despite this message of love and trust, Lavelle’s savings and loan has been broken into 15 times and robbed at gun point eight times in the 36 years it has been operating. But these events don’t deter him in his calling. In fact, Lavelle used them to talk to the burglars about Christ.
"I asked one (burglar) why he was holding me up. He said, ‘Shut up and give me that money!’ His hands were shaking. I looked at him and said, ‘Here take the money, but you can’t shut me up. I’m here to help you. You’re traveling a dead-end street.’ Behind that stocking, I could see that this was a kid who was maybe 18 or 19. And he didn’t know what to do after I said that. He knew he was listening to the truth."
Lavelle actually had some burglars call to apologize."
From:
http://www.ivmdl.org/reflections.cfm?study=62
I respect Lavelle. There is a time to resist violence in self-defence, but if one is held at gun point there may be little a person can do to defend self. It that case witnessing is a reasonable approach as Christians are to have a concern for the spiritual welfare of others.
ReplyDeleteAs well, a strong view on God's sovereignty and predestination should not prohibit evangelism, as it is not the place of Christians to decide who God may or may not elect.