Wednesday, September 17, 2008
Some non-exhaustive thoughts on 1 John 1: 5-10
Wyoming, (a Mac desktop picture)
I have been thinking about 1 John 1: 5-10.
From the NASB:
NASB
God Is Light
5(A)This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that (B)God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6(C)If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we (D)lie and (E)do not practice the truth;
7but if we (F)walk in the Light as (G)He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and (H)the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8(I)If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the (J)truth is not in us.
9(K)If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and (L)to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10(M)If we say that we have not sinned, we (N)make Him a liar and (O)His word is not in us.
R.W. Orr seems to have some good insights. Concerning verse 7 he writes that Jesus who died on the cross did a work that 'purifies us'. Orr (1986: 1575). Orr notes that the Apostle John includes himself in receiving this benefit. This cleansing is a continual repeated cleansing and is distinguished from the 'bath' of regeneration noted in John 13: 10. Orr (1986: 1575). These repeated cleansings are confirmation that the first regeneration did occur, and that a person that does not understand the need for continual cleansing was not regenerated in the first place. Orr (1986: 1575).
In verse 8, Orr writes that the 'root principle of sin' has not been eradicated from our hearts. This was an error of the Gnostics. Orr (1986: 1575). Orr writes that when we confess our sin (verse 9), God is faithful and righteous to forgive, and in verse 10, if we deny that we sin we are deceitful and deny the testimony of God's word. Orr (1986: 1575).
The atoning and resurrection work of Christ regenerates or 'baths' a person once, and all past, present, and future sins are forgiven. I reason that a believer does not need to continually ask God for forgiveness of sins, as a person believes and trusts in Christ in the regeneration process and seeks forgiveness of sins, but a Christian should confess sins and ask for purging of these sins in cleansing.
1 John 1: 7
Word Detail
Word/Inflected Form Lemma Part of Speech Lexical Entry
καθαρίζει (2) καθαρίζω (161) Verb to make clean, to cleanse
Parsing 3rd Person Present Active Indicative Singular
Related Words καθαίρω φοιβάω ἁγνίζω ἐκκαθαίρω
1 John 1:7
1 John 1: 9
Word Detail
Word/Inflected Form Lemma Part of Speech Lexical Entry
καθαρίσῃ (5) καθαρίζω (161) Verb to make clean, to cleanse
Parsing 3rd Person Aorist Active Subjunctive Singular
Related Words καθαίρω φοιβάω ἁγνίζω ἐκκαθαίρω
1 John 1:9
ὁμολογῶμεν-confess, to assent, i.e. covenant, acknowledge
ORR, R.W. (1986) ‘1 John’, in F.F. Bruce (gen.ed.), The International Bible Commentary, Grand Rapids, Marshall Pickering/ Zondervan.
End of part one
I do not eat at fast food restaurants very much. I order a pizza probably twice a month. I go to Dairy Queen probably six times a year. Dairy Queen is my favourite fast food burger place. Now having visited my brother and family in Arizona and having been to Florida and other states, I realize that the United States has more fast food corporations to choose from than does BC. However, among Dairy Queen, McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's and A&W, I prefer Dairy Queen.
Okay, here is my BEEF with McDonalds and Burger King. With all the negative in the media concerning questionable quality food, questionable nutritional value, wages paid to most employees that are difficult to make a living with, and questions concerning how fast food is produced, why are so many McDonalds and Burger King restaurants filthy?
Not only do I generally prefer Dairy Queen food to that of McDonalds and Burger King, but Dairy Queen restaurants are often reasonably clean. Sometimes at a Dairy Queen I need to wipe the table. At one local restaurant when the owner sees me do that he sends someone out to clean the table or does it himself. At so many McDonalds and Burger King restaurants I have eaten at, especially ones in Vancouver and Burnaby, the places are filthy. I do realize these places have many customers in short periods of time, but I reason there is time to clean tables after most meals.
My thoughts:
The local franchise management at times accepts that they are selling low quality food that is not healthy and the need for customers to eat in a clean environment in not that important.
The employees are paid little, and the management does not develop a professionalism with the employees that the restaurant needs to be first class in regard to food quality, service and cleanliness. My suggestion, pay employees a little more and develop the restaurants as places for career potential.
McDonalds and Burger King should find ways of producing better quality food that is more healthy, develop professionalism with the employees and keep restaurants clean. They should also make sure critics do not have much to criticize!
Perhaps the executive boards of McDonalds and Burger King really are tired of their jobs and the millions they make a year and figure it is time to let certain individual franchisees run their respective names into the ground.;)
Ronald McJoker states:
'I'll clean up those dirty McDonalds and Burger King restaurants for you, no problem.'
Pakistan
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Interesting thoughts on how you believe a Christian doesn't need to keep asking for forgiveness of sins but rather walk in the purging process as we confess our sins ect.!! Does that make sense cause I lost my train of thought!!
ReplyDeleteI think that if you complained about the dirty tables, that Ronald McJoker would just shoot you!
ReplyDeleteWhen I was little, we used to go to Dairy Queen quite often, and I really enjoyed it. Now, with sinus headaches that can become seriously painful migraines with additional symptoms, I have to stay away from dairy products (including any pizza with cheese). The last time I went to a Dairy Queen was some years ago, after I had not been in many years, and I then bought a Banana Split, which I used to love. However, I could not believe how outrageously expensive it was! The price was ridiculous!
Once or twice a week now, I go to Burger King (I hate McDonalds) and order a whopper, chicken nuggets with honey mustard sauce, and---though I used to really love their shakes, I can no longer have those---I gamble and get a slice of cookie dough pie and a slice of Hershey's Sundae pie (which, so far, has not been enough to cause sinus headaches or migraines, thankfully).
My absolute favorite place to eat out is Chinese Buffet, and I'm going to one this Friday night. However, Chinese restaurants are the worst when it comes to health issues, and a number of them, at least in Miami, have been closed down for things like leaving the back door open and allowing pigeons and rats (and probably roaches) to come inside among the food.
Thanks, Anon.
ReplyDeleteYou are correct.
It is probably my fault that the burger talk threw you off.;)
Russ:)
I think that if you complained about the dirty tables, that Ronald McJoker would just shoot you!
ReplyDeleteFirst he would shoot Ronnie Jack LaLanne McDonald in the track suit.
Cheers, Jeff.
wow I love mcdonalds and burger king! not to mention, I love the 1st chapter of John. Its very poetic and sums up the Light and the Word which is Christ
ReplyDeleteThanks, Army.
ReplyDeleteI like the McDonalds' Big Mac, but the rest of the menu is so so to me. I do like the Burger King Whopper Jr.
Thanks for your support with 1 John.
Russ:)
I think I might have to disagree with you, Russ, on your point that it might not be necessary for believers to confess their sin and ask for forgiveness. True, the atoning work of Christ is more than sufficient for all our sins past, present, and future. But there is a biblical precedent for confessing our sins before God. Even the Old Testament is riddled with examples or instructions to do so. Confession is not so much for God's benefit (he knows what we are going to do before we even do it), but it's a process that brings growth in us. It draws us closer to him and makes us aware of our dependence on his grace, and also makes us more aware of how we transgress his law and his commands.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure that you would agree with me, and maybe it was just the wording of your phrase that caused a little confusion.
As for the fast food restaurants, they have one concern: profit. However they can make money, they'll do it. If it means paying their employees as little as possible, not hiring that extra person to clean the tables, so be it. McDonalds especially, being the giant they are in the industry, I can't really seem them caring. But then again, when I go to eat at a fast food place, I'm looking for a quick in and out, and rarely do I sit down there to eat.
"I reason that a believer does not need to continually ask God for forgiveness of sins..."
ReplyDeleteI agree. Personally, however, as a child of God by faith in Christ, I like to employ the dynamic of the Father/son relationship in my communion with God. I don't ask for forgiveness of my sins for salvation (which was accomplished once and for all time in Person and Work of Christ), but rather for restoration of intimacy, as a child asking his parent to forgive him.
Sin is really nothing more than unbelief which manifests itself in various behavorial "sins". Unbelief betrays a lack of love for God, which we all still deal with in varying degrees while we are in our present state of imperfection.
So for me, to ask "forgiveness" when I find myself in disagreement with God is really my way of coming to my Father in "confession" and asking his forgiveness for my lack of love for Him that has manifested itself in some way or another.
I can see where "confession" really incorporates this idea, but again, as a Child of God I like the analogy of the father/son relationship. Those of us who have been brought up in a home where our father truly loved us realize that he will always love us because we are his child. But as children, we still seek his "forgiveness" when we bring shame to him or in some way disappoint him. We know we're forgiven, but we come in that way anyway.
I actually like Burger King hamburgers, but the Burger King mascot (whatever they call him) is a little creepy. If I were 5 years old and I saw that dude on the street corner I'd probably (...)my pants and run screaming! Even now when I see him on TV he freaks me out.
As far as I'm concerned, Ronald McJoker has some competition for "scary" from the Burger King dude! :-)
Thanks, Jake.
ReplyDeleteI reason that a believer does not need to continually ask God for forgiveness of sins, as a person believes and trusts in Christ in the regeneration process and seeks forgiveness of sins, but a Christian should confess sins and ask for purging of these sins in cleansing.
We need to confess sins and repent before God often, but we do not need to specifically ask for our sins to be forgiven by God as that was done once in Christ. Now I admit I have at times asked the Lord to forgive my sins as I confess them, and it is not wrong to ask for forgiveness of sins. We do not however, specifically need to do this act, but confession of sins, and turning from sins is Biblically mandatory.
I still believe in asking persons for forgiveness and in confessing sins to them in repentance.
Profit at the expense of food quality and cleanliness is coming back to trouble some of these fast food corporations.
"I reason that a believer does not need to continually ask God for forgiveness of sins..."
ReplyDeleteI agree. Personally, however, as a child of God by faith in Christ, I like to employ the dynamic of the Father/son relationship in my communion with God. I don't ask for forgiveness of my sins for salvation (which was accomplished once and for all time in Person and Work of Christ), but rather for restoration of intimacy, as a child asking his parent to forgive him.
We agree, GGM.
I like the Whopper Jr. and sometimes the onion rings are tasty, but so many local Burger King restaurants are dirty. I will not even take my Mommy there, or a date. I would go with one of you folks but I would probably need to wipe down the table and perhaps the seats.
Cheers.:)
Russ, I love the Roland Joker thats Great. I am going out on a limb and Guessing your living in Sin and are a HUGE sinner, Since you did not put A and W as number one on the List. LOL.
ReplyDeleteJust kidding. In my world, A and W tops the list of choices you gave. But over all I love Cold sandwhiches and I really love Subay. the Best Sandwhich shop I ever went to was in SLC when I went their.
But around here, it's subay. I am not much on fast food.
As a side not, my brother bought the newest edtion of the fighter magazine (Tap out). They had shirts for sale through a website called www.trulight.net) on the front of the Shirts is says (WRATH fightwear)
On the back it says, (THE GRAPPLERS PRAYER. Now I lay YOU down to sleep, because my Choke is sunk so deep.
feel the rush your world goes black, all because you gave your back.)
I loved that so much I bought 3 of them. Rick b
That was entertaining, thanks Rick.:)
ReplyDeletePersonally, however, as a child of God by faith in Christ, I like to employ the dynamic of the Father/son relationship in my communion with God. I don't ask for forgiveness of my sins for salvation (which was accomplished once and for all time in Person and Work of Christ), but rather for restoration of intimacy, as a child asking his parent to forgive him.
ReplyDeleteI agree with GGM. I think the main reason a Christian is to ask for forgiveness whenever they sin is to restore an intimate relationship.
Sin is really nothing more than unbelief which manifests itself in various behavorial "sins". Unbelief betrays a lack of love for God, which we all still deal with in varying degrees while we are in our present state of imperfection.
Again I agree with GGM. Every time a Christian sins, someone said, they are being an Atheist.
I actually like Burger King hamburgers, but the Burger King mascot (whatever they call him) is a little creepy. If I were 5 years old and I saw that dude on the street corner I'd probably (...)my pants and run screaming! Even now when I see him on TV he freaks me out.
As far as I'm concerned, Ronald McJoker has some competition for "scary" from the Burger King dude!
Again I agree with GGM! I would rather face Ronald McJoker than the Burger King any day! I can't believe they actually use that freaky thing in commercials! I can't believe they haven't lost customers after showing that grown-up Chucky doll in their commercials! And I can't believe they haven't made a horror movie using that Burger King monster/creature. That thing is more scary than Freddy and Jason combined!
Russ said:
but so many local Burger King restaurants are dirty.
I have not experienced that here. Though I mostly go through the drive-thru, the times I have gone inside, the restaurants have been very clean...at least with Burger King. Even the restroom has been very clean.
Now, if I were back in Miami, I would completely agree with you, because everything there was filthy!
Rick B said:
On the back it says, (THE GRAPPLERS PRAYER. Now I lay YOU down to sleep, because my Choke is sunk so deep.
LOL! That's funny!
Thanks,
ReplyDeleteA point to consider is that by confessing sins and repenting of sins also maintains relationship with God.
Russ:)
I can't believe they haven't lost customers after showing that grown-up Chucky doll in their commercials!
Hey, don't bring Chuckles into this, he is not here to defend himself!;)
That thing is more scary than Freddy and Jason combined!
Hey! Jason is not that scary, and he is not here to defend himself...shalom.;>
Thanks, Mr. Jeff Jackson.;)
kingpuss
I don't think that castle in the last picture is in Pakistan, it looks too European. I'd sure like to know where it is though.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of disrespectful fast-food employees:
BK employee takes a bath
Both the blog and website noted on the photo show photos from Pakistan. Pakistan is the best bet.
ReplyDeleteI heard about the employee...as I was stating professionalism can be a problem.
Thanks, Chucky.
Russ, you said,
ReplyDeleteThe atoning and resurrection work of Christ regenerates or 'baths' a person once, and all past, present, and future sins are forgiven. I reason that a believer does not need to continually ask God for forgiveness of sins, as a person believes and trusts in Christ in the regeneration process and seeks forgiveness of sins, but a Christian should confess sins and ask for purging of these sins in cleansing.
I've read that in some writings, principally RB Thieme, and heard it preached on popular radio-vangelist programs, but have yet to find Scripture to back that up.
1. 1st John says if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. The context leads us from sin through confession to a life unencumbered by sin. This indicates an "evangelical repentance." Now, do we repent of our sins before God nonchalantly acknowledging the fact, or do we call on Him in His mercy to "forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness?" The fact that sin is sin, that is, an offense against the God Who loves us, and that I am personally responsible for having caused the offense, in what kind of relationship do I presume to partake that would excuse my simply brushing it off with "Well, that's life?" If I am saved I love God. If I love God I am going to hate those things that offend Him, and beg His pardon if I do such things. Christian growth is a process of such "washings."
2. The popular answer here would be, "But I'm already forgiven!" But on what Scripture is such objection based?
Thanks, Robert.
ReplyDeleteOrr notes that the Apostle John includes himself in receiving this benefit. This cleansing is a continual repeated cleansing and is distinguished from the 'bath' of regeneration noted in John 13: 10. Orr (1986: 1575). These repeated cleansings are confirmation that the first regeneration did occur, and that a person that does not understand the need for continual cleansing was not regenerated in the first place. Orr (1986: 1575).
Now, do we repent of our sins before God nonchalantly acknowledging the fact, or do we call on Him in His mercy to "forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness?"
Persons in Christ confess and repent of sins and depend on God for cleansing. One could also ask for forgiveness of sins.
The passage does not talk about brushing off sin. There is a process of continual cleansing which is taken very seriously here.
Being forgiven through the atoning work of Christ in justification (Romans 4, Galatians 2) the believer has salvation, and is regenerated as Orr notes from Scripture, but also goes through a continual cleansing process as Orr explains in 1 John.
Russ:)
"Orr notes that the Apostle John includes himself in receiving this benefit. This cleansing is a continual repeated cleansing and is distinguished from the 'bath' of regeneration noted in John 13: 10. Orr (1986: 1575). These repeated cleansings are confirmation that the first regeneration did occur, and that a person that does not understand the need for continual cleansing was not regenerated in the first place. Orr (1986: 1575).
ReplyDeleteNow, do we repent of our sins before God nonchalantly acknowledging the fact, or do we call on Him in His mercy to "forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness?""
I do believe when we sin, or in any way hurt anyone or anything in any way, be it by word or deed, we do have regrets almost instantly. It is at that point we need to seek God and apologize for the sin and ask forgiveness, even though we already know we are forgiven. That I believe is our responsibility, and keeps the line of communication with God always open. We then can cast off the notion that we need to be "re-forgiven" It is a good thing to be in continual conversation with our God. It is also a good thing to apologize to the one we have hurt and ask for forgiveness.
Re fast food outlets or restaurants, my feeling too is that these should be kept cleaner, food should be as nutritious as possible, and by paying employees better wages, perhaps those employees who really care about their jobs and are seeking advancement would tend to work harder, be more caring and would work there longer. Most employees tend to be students.
I don't like McDonalds and feel they have nothing to offer. Burger King is a bit better. Have not been to a Wendys for many years. AandW are pretty good. Dairy Queen is the best of the bunch, but again there are some that are absolutely spotless while others can stand some improvement. So it all depends on management as to how they are going to run their operation. I do enjoy pizza, and there are some that I prefer and others that I will not buy. Preference is Pizza Hut, either eat in or take home.
Good as it goes, Russ, but the questions are still hanging,
ReplyDelete1. Where is the Bible do we find anything (Except, was it Ireneaus who said that the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans" was the idea that sin really didn't matter?) to suggest that all future sins are already forgiven? The only word I've found about future sins is "don't."
2. If, as Jesus said (John 17:3) that our relationship with God is our salvation, how can we sin against God and not beg His forgiveness? A real sense of shame & remorse would be the first evidence that the Holy Spirit is, indeed, at work in our lives unless we have hardened our own consciences and quenched His work.
3. In case of (2.,) if those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God (as we are assured is the case), can this be true except that those who are not led are not? Otherwise, what meaning is left in the statement?
These three points mark out the real hazard of calling such presumptions "doctrine."
I think your post, Russ, could explain away the faulty (Catholic?) idea that suicide is a sin that cannot be forgiven (since no confession could then follow).
ReplyDeleteI consider this material to be related and of interest:
The seven deadly sins, also known as the capital vices or cardinal sins, are a classification of vices that were originally used in early Christian teachings to educate and instruct followers concerning (immoral) fallen man's tendency to sin. The Catholic Church divided sin into two principal categories: "venial", which are relatively minor, and could be forgiven through any sacramentals or sacraments of the church, and the more severe "capital" or mortal sin. Mortal sins destroyed the life of grace, and created the threat of eternal damnation unless either absolved through the sacrament of confession, or forgiven through perfect contrition on the part of the penitent. Beginning in the early 14th century, the popularity of the seven deadly sins as a theme among European artists of the time eventually helped to ingrain them in many areas of Christian culture and Christian consciousness in general throughout the world. One means of such ingraining was the creation of the mnemonic "SALIGIA" based on the first letters in Latin of the seven deadly sins: superbia, avaritia, luxuria, invidia, gula, ira, acedia.
Background of the Seven Deadly Sins
There is nowhere in the Christian Bible that a list of the Seven Deadly Sins is given, although lists of virtues contrasted with lists of sins are found in certain books of the New Testament, such as the Epistle to the Galatians. The modern concept of the Seven Deadly Sins is linked to the works of the 4th century monk Evagrius Ponticus, who listed eight "evil thoughts" as follows (Refoule, 1967):
Gluttony; fornication; avarice; sorrow; anger; discouragement; vainglory; pride.
The first three of these sins, as Refoule explains, link to lustful appetite; anger links with the irascible; and vainglory and pride link with the intellect. Some years later, Pope Gregory I (Pope Gregory the Great) would revise this list to form the more common "Seven Deadly Sins".
Listings of the sins since Gregory the Great
Listed in the same order used by both Pope Gregory the Great in the 6th century, and later by Dante Alighieri in his epic poem The Divine Comedy, the seven deadly sins are as follows: luxuria (extravagance, later lust), gula (gluttony), avaritia (greed), acedia (sloth), ira (wrath), invidia (envy), and superbia (pride). Each of the seven deadly sins has an opposite among the corresponding seven holy virtues (sometimes also referred to as the contrary virtues). In parallel order to the sins they oppose, the seven holy virtues are chastity, temperance, charity, diligence, patience, kindness, and humility.
The identification and definition of the seven deadly sins over their history has been a fluid process and the idea of what each of the seven actually encompasses has evolved over time. This process has been aided by the fact that they are not referred to in either a cohesive or codified manner in the Bible itself, and as a result other literary and ecclesiastical works referring to the seven deadly sins were instead consulted as sources from which definitions might be drawn. Part II of Dante's Divine Comedy, "Purgatorio", has almost certainly been the best known source since the Renaissance.
The modern Roman Catholic Catechism lists the sins as: "pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth or acedia."."
From Wikipedia
Heroes starts again on Monday!
ReplyDeleteWoo-Hoo!
Fireproof opens on Friday!
Cool!
Hi, Robert,
ReplyDelete1. Where is the Bible do we find anything (Except, was it Ireneaus who said that the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans" was the idea that sin really didn't matter?) to suggest that all future sins are already forgiven? The only word I've found about future sins is "don't."
I am trying to state this kindly, but no one in this discussion, except you for the sake of discussion, is suggesting that sin does not really matter, and so why state the point?
The atoning work is applied to the elect. Christ as perfect man and infinite God provides a covering and propitiation that atones for all those sins. In regeneration the elect ask for forgiveness of sins and therefore sins are covered. The human nature is so sinful that every single sin would not be recognized in order to ask forgiveness for in every case.
When Jesus or a disciple tells one their sins are forgiven it is reasoned this includes past, present, and future, otherwise Christ's atoning work would be rather inefficient. This DOES NOT MEAN one should not deal with God with their future sins as they occur over time!
Erickson provides some verses concerning Jesus taking away our sins:
John 1: 29
2 Corinthians 5: 21
Galatians 3: 13
2. If, as Jesus said (John 17:3) that our relationship with God is our salvation, how can we sin against God and not beg His forgiveness? A real sense of shame & remorse would be the first evidence that the Holy Spirit is, indeed, at work in our lives unless we have hardened our own consciences and quenched His work.
Praying to God and confessing and repenting of sins IS to show remorse and to realize one has done wrong. No one (other than with your point) has suggested that sin should be dealt with in a non-remorseful way.
3. In case of (2.,) if those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God (as we are assured is the case), can this be true except that those who are not led are not? Otherwise, what meaning is left in the statement?
I will state that some apparent Christians are quite worldly and probably are not seeking fellowship with God. They have a weak faith to start with and so when they sin they do have a strong faith to fall back on.
These three points mark out the real hazard of calling such presumptions "doctrine."
This has not been demonstrated. What can be shown is that confessing Christians that sin and do not confess, repent, or we can state, ask forgiveness, demonstrate a lack of desire for fellowship with God. These are either weak immature Christians, or non-believers.
Thanks, Robert.
Russ:)
I think your post, Russ, could explain away the faulty (Catholic?) idea that suicide is a sin that cannot be forgiven (since no confession could then follow).
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jeff.
Although believers guided by the Holy Spirit should constantly seek God, we fail. We have weak bodies and minds/spirits.
It is the work of Christ in me that saves me, and my response to this is a sign that I am saved.
I do believe when we sin, or in any way hurt anyone or anything in any way, be it by word or deed, we do have regrets almost instantly. It is at that point we need to seek God and apologize for the sin and ask forgiveness, even though we already know we are forgiven. That I believe is our responsibility, and keeps the line of communication with God always open. We then can cast off the notion that we need to be "re-forgiven" It is a good thing to be in continual conversation with our God. It is also a good thing to apologize to the one we have hurt and ask for forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteGood points, thanks very much.:)
We do not need to be re-forgiven as we confess and repent of our sins. I acknowledge that this can be done by also specifically asking for our sins to be forgiven, although I reason it only necessary to confess our sins as we appeal to God within our already forgiven state. Either way we are seeking fellowship with God.
I agree we should ask others for forgiveness.
Anon, I basically agree with your restaurant comments.
Russ:)
1. Where is the Bible do we find anything (Except, was it Ireneaus who said that the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans" was the idea that sin really didn't matter?) to suggest that all future sins are already forgiven? The only word I've found about future sins is "don't."
ReplyDeleteHi Robert,
I don't think anyone here has suggested that a Christian can't or shouldn't "ask for forgiveness" when we realize that we have disappointed our Heavenly Father. I think the issue is whether or not we need to continue to ask for forgiveness in order to continually be "saved". If we believe that the work of Christ is a once-and-for-all work (He doesn't need to be crucified every time a "believer" sins again in order for His work to apply to the believer), then His shed blood has covered every sin that we did commit and will commit in the future. I'm not suggesting that you DON'T believe this, but based on what you've written, I'm not sure if you would agree with this or not.
Christ's work is "effectual" in that once it has been applied to a person it is sure to accomplish its goal. In this way, once a person has "truly" come to Christ for his redemption ("truly" as opposed to "falsly", Jeff :-), then that person has been covered fully and for all-time by the blood of Jesus. So to ask for forgiveness from a soteriological perspective is not only "wrong", but it is blasphemous--it says that the work of Jesus is only as good as my own "work" of continued repentance. And this is a very "Roman Catholic" perspective.
Personally, I agree with you that to not ask for "forgiveness" when we've sinned is not "Christian"--that is if we define "forgiveness" in a certain way. Again, if we are asking for "forgiveness" to KEEP us "saved", then we've misunderstood who Jesus really is and what He came to do. There is no need to "proof-text" this; the warp and woof of the Scripture is clear that the work of Christ as the second Adam and True Man/Son of God is effectual. Once we are joined to Christ by the Spirit in the New Birth, we can never be separated (Rom. 8; John 6). And this is because of the presence of the Holy Spirit. I agree with Paul when he says, "For I am confident ...that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." In Romans 6, Paul declares that the "true" believer has died with/in Christ and now lives in Christ. He has been buried with Christ and as he has been raised in Him to walk in newness of life. We once were dead, but now we are alive in Him. We can never become "dead" again because we have the life of Christ in us by the presence of the Spirit.
But if we seek our Father's forgiveness simply as a son seeks the restored intimate communion of his father by coming to him, admitting his mistake (sin) and seeking restoration in "fellowship", then I agree (as I'm sure the others who have commented to as well) that all Christians will seek this kind of "forgiveness". This kind of "forgiveness" is not a forgiveness unto salvation (otherwise Christ would have to continually be "sacraficed" as under the Old Covenant economy); but a "forgiveness" unto renewed intimacy with our Father.
Again, I'm not saying that you do not agree with all of this; but it is a little unclear how you are referring to this "forgiveness". And if I'm just "preaching to the choir", that's cool--we can all always use the encouragement of the Gospel, right? :-)
BTW--I ate at Good Times today out here in Colorado. The restaurant (at least out front) was clean, the service was good and the hamburger was...well...it was all right. Mrs. Moogly really likes their hamburgers...but, again, I'll take Burger King even with the freakish-looking mascot. :-)
If an earthly son has angry words with his earthly dad, the son needs to apologize to the dad to restore the relationship back to its intimate state. However, he never ceased to be the son of his dad just because there were angry words.
ReplyDeleteLikewise, a Christian is holy and washed and clean forever when they become born again, and the Holy Spirit Who indwells them is their promise and guarantee, like an engagement ring, that eternal life is theirs. (i.e., if we cannot earn our salvation by our works, then neither can we lose it by our works.) Nevertheless, because we still dwell in weak, sinful flesh, we still sin, so we still need to confess our sins to God in order to restore the close, intimate relationship. (My attempt at allegory here: our corrupt rags of being dead in trespasses and sin have been replaced with robes of righteousness, but, as we are still in this corrupted world and in our corrupted flesh, our robes of righteousness will still get dirty, so we still need to have them washed whenever we sin.) But that doesn't mean we have to keep gaining salvation again and again. A person can be born again only once. On the flip side, if a person is truly born again and walking with Jesus, the Holy Spirit will convict that person's heart every time they sin. If the person then continues to sin despite that conviction of the Holy Spirit, God may discipline them, as a father disciplines his child.
The Lord's prayer features Jesus stating in Matthew 6: 12:
ReplyDeleteNew American Standard Bible (©1995)
'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
I believe in stating the Lord's prayer. One scholar I heard stated that this was a pre-atonement work prayer and therefore believer's sins are forgiven now, and were not when Jesus gave his disciples the prayer. He concludes we therefore do not need to ask for our sins to be forgiven as this is now a completed work. This is a very good point, but again I do not have a problem with asking for forgiveness of sins, or with the Lord's prayer for today.
I think his emphasis perhaps, and mine for sure is not whether or not one should ask for forgiveness of sins, but that as believers our sins are forgiven through Christ's work and that we should seek in confession and repentance to be cleansed and therefore be Christ-like.
We need to come to the Lord with our sins as it is noted in 1 John: 1: 9.
I don't think anyone here has suggested that a Christian can't or shouldn't "ask for forgiveness" when we realize that we have disappointed our Heavenly Father. I think the issue is whether or not we need to continue to ask for forgiveness in order to continually be "saved".
ReplyDeleteYes, excellent.
If we believe that the work of Christ is a once-and-for-all work (He doesn't need to be crucified every time a "believer" sins again in order for His work to apply to the believer), then His shed blood has covered every sin that we did commit and will commit in the future. I'm not suggesting that you DON'T believe this, but based on what you've written, I'm not sure if you would agree with this or not.
Good point.
Christ's work is "effectual" in that once it has been applied to a person it is sure to accomplish its goal. In this way, once a person has "truly" come to Christ for his redemption...So to ask for forgiveness from a soteriological perspective is not only "wrong", but it is blasphemous--it says that the work of Jesus is only as good as my own "work" of continued repentance. And this is a very "Roman Catholic" perspective.
Yes, good point.
But if we seek our Father's forgiveness simply as a son seeks the restored intimate communion of his father by coming to him, admitting his mistake (sin) and seeking restoration in "fellowship", then I agree (as I'm sure the others who have commented to as well) that all Christians will seek this kind of "forgiveness". This kind of "forgiveness" is not a forgiveness unto salvation (otherwise Christ would have to continually be "sacraficed" as under the Old Covenant economy); but a "forgiveness" unto renewed intimacy with our Father.
We basically agree, Jason, and thanks.
Christ Jesus died for us in the past. He doesn't have to die again every time we sin. He died for us 2000 years ago. He died for souls, not for instances. In other words, His sacrificial death applies to my whole life, not just to certain instances. When we are regenerated, we are made clean and holy temples, and the Holy Spirit comes into us to indwell us forever. Jesus doesn't say, "That sin that he just committed is too strong for me to handle. Even MY blood can't cover THAT. Holy Spirit, you need to leave him. He's too much for us." No, He paid for ALL the sins of the Elect.
ReplyDeleteJesus said that none can snatch us out of His hand. "None" includes ourselves.
At the other extreme, someone who never confesses their sin to God could certainly not be a true Christian.
When we repent of all our sins initially at regeneration, that attitude of repentance is continual, and is shown (and stirred up by the Holy Spirit) every time we sin. As Christians, we should always be in a repentant state of mind, so that, as soon as we sin again, we need to repent. The very fact that we are Christ's means that we must necessarily hate sin. At the same time, sin still draws us, so there is a conflict. Because we still fall, we must re-affirm our relationship every time we injure it. But, even if we were to die before we were able to confess that sin, that sin would still be covered under the blood of Christ, since the blood of Christ covering us is a one-time action. When we, as Christians, sin, we quench the Holy Spirit, but He does not leave us. We still belong to Christ, and we still have everlasting life.
ReplyDeleteI'm not necessarily speaking to anyone in particular here, because I realize that I am addressing some points that haven't even really been brought up. I'm just sort of thinking out loud, and mulling over this whole thing by writing down my thoughts. So, please excuse me as I write out my thoughts and meditate on this out loud.
Nevertheless, because we still dwell in weak, sinful flesh, we still sin, so we still need to confess our sins to God in order to restore the close, intimate relationship.
ReplyDeleteAgreed Jeff, thanks.
If the person then continues to sin despite that conviction of the Holy Spirit, God may discipline them, as a father disciplines his child.
I agree, Jeff.
Christ Jesus died for us in the past. He doesn't have to die again every time we sin. He died for us 2000 years ago. He died for souls, not for instances. In other words, His sacrificial death applies to my whole life, not just to certain instances.
Yes.
At the other extreme, someone who never confesses their sin to God could certainly not be a true Christian.
That is good thinking as usual, Jeff.
"truly" as opposed to "falsly", Jeff :-)
ReplyDeleteLOL at that little jab...
So to ask for forgiveness from a soteriological perspective is not only "wrong", but it is blasphemous--it says that the work of Jesus is only as good as my own "work" of continued repentance.
ReplyDeleteVery excellently put.
And, BTW, I should have said "poke" in my last comment, not "jab." I also realize it was, at least in part, a note of explanation, probably anticipating a possible response from me regarding the word "truly."
Doh...I am only now reading "Great Googly Moogly!'s" comment, and I see that he had already made some of the same points I made. That should teach me to read all the comments before writing a new comment, so that I don't write something that someone else has already written.
ReplyDeleteThe term 'true' is well-used when it is opposed to false, but when used as in to the greater degree in comparison to something else, some academics could jump all over it and criticize it.
ReplyDeleteRuss
"LOL at that little jab..."
ReplyDeleteI'm glad!! :-)
"I also realize it was, at least in part, a note of explanation, probably anticipating a possible response from me regarding the word "truly."
I figured you would know how I was using it here...but I couldn't resist the fun! :-)
"Very excellently put"
Thanks Jeff, I appreciate that! Yours and Russ' opinions mean a lot to me.
GGM
but, again, I'll take Burger King even with the freakish-looking mascot. :-)
ReplyDeleteI tell you what, if I EVER walk into a Burger King and see that "freakish-looking mascot" walking around, I'm turning around QUICK and walking out the door! I'll even go to McDonald's if I have to!
The Green Goblin should work at Burger King to counter Ronald McJoker!
ReplyDeleteThanks Jeff, I appreciate that! Yours and Russ' opinions mean a lot to me.
ReplyDeleteWell, in that case, GGM...as I already said, you had already addressed many of the same points I made. That probably shows that we think alike. However, in addition to that, I feel that you worded those points far better than I did. Excellent job!
satire and theology said..
ReplyDeleteI am trying to state this kindly, but no one in this discussion, except you for the sake of discussion, is suggesting that sin does not really matter, and so why state the point?
r.e: Not trying to pull ideas out of the ether, Russ, and neither trying to dig up stuff to be contentious. In the day-to-day, if I go about believing that whatever sin I may commit is already forgiven before the fact, then how does it matter? It’s become an entirely moot point. There are no eternal consequences, and, arguably, no immediate consequences to my “relationship with God” since, if He’s already forgiven it, then He’s not all that upset about it either, is He?
satire and theology said..
The atoning work is applied to the elect. Christ as perfect man and infinite God provides a covering and propitiation that atones for all those sins. In regeneration the elect ask for forgiveness of sins and therefore sins are covered. The human nature is so sinful that every single sin would not be recognized in order to ask forgiveness for in every case.
r.e: We obviously don’t put the onus on our own navel-gazing memories to dredge up every offense. David said, “Lord You have searched me and known me,” and “Wash me with hyssop, and I shall be clean. Wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.” God is perfectly capable and willing to do that, and much more. If we stay focused on our sins, our lives are comparable to the person who, though rescued from a disaster, remains too fixated on the horror to live a productive life afterward.
satire and theology said..
When Jesus or a disciple tells one their sins are forgiven it is reasoned this includes past, present, and future, otherwise Christ's atoning work would be rather inefficient.
r.e: No more so, as well as I can see it, than to say that the Blood is there to (potentially) atone for the sins of all who turn to Him in honest repentance. Our walk with the Lord is an ongoing experience, which is why the Bible doesn’t call it a “sit.”
satire and theology said..
This DOES NOT MEAN one should not deal with God with their future sins as they occur over time!
r.e: Well. And so allow God to deal...
satire and theology said..
Erickson provides some verses concerning Jesus taking away our sins:
John 1: 29
2 Corinthians 5: 21
Galatians 3: 13
Right on, Substitutionary Atonement, for sure.
satire and theology said..
Praying to God and confessing and repenting of sins IS to show remorse and to realize one has done wrong. No one (other than with your point) has suggested that sin should be dealt with in a non-remorseful way.
r.e: Russ, I don’t really think I’m just the dog shaking a rag here to mention that if we leave off, in our own prayer life, the element of forgiveness then a Big Buddy presumption is not far away. Back to the original point, this kind of “approach” is very well described in Jesus’ letter to the Laodicean church, that they were so self-assured of their religion, and were at the point of being puked forth from the Lord’s body.
Not pointing any fingers here, at all, but to say that the idea of presuming that all our future sins are pre-paid, whether or not we repent, resist sin, or flee temptation is, at the very least, a fool’s wager.
One scholar I heard stated that this was a pre-atonement work prayer and therefore believer's sins are forgiven now, and were not when Jesus gave his disciples the prayer. He concludes we therefore do not need to ask for our sins to be forgiven as this is now a completed work.
ReplyDeleteBah! That's like the old saying, "Love means never having to say you're sorry," which is a load of crap.
I think his emphasis perhaps, and mine for sure is not whether or not one should ask for forgiveness of sins, but that as believers our sins are forgiven through Christ's work and that we should seek in confession and repentance to be cleansed and therefore be Christ-like.
If you're right, Russ, and that is truly what he meant, then I would revise my last statement.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
'And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
This is something that continues to bother me, even today. If there ever were an argument for losing your salvation, I would think this would be it. Jesus stated at another point that if you do not forgive your brother, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive you. If a Christian refuses to forgive someone, then will Christ refuse to forgive that Christian? Or, on the flip side, if a person is truly a Christian, then would they not necessarily forgive everyone, because the Holy Spirit is working in them to do so?
There are people in my past that I have to continue to re-affirm in my mind that I forgive them. I have found it helpful to say to myself, not just that "I forgive them," but that "I HAVE FORGIVEN them." Nevertheless, I still sometimes feel a bit of resentment rise up within me whenever certain events (i.e., things that others have done to me) pop up in my memory. Does this mean that I have not forgiven them?
If I were to see them today, I don't know that I could run up to them and give them a hug and say, "I love you, brother." In fact, there have been instances where I have seen someone from my past, and I completely ignored them, because I figured they didn't like me, or didn't want to talk to me.
Man, I'm gone for a day or two and 20 plus replies get posted. I saw the post about the Movie Fireproof. Never heard of it, so I went to,
ReplyDeletewww.imdb.com Looked up the movie and this was posted.
Why did I write in ALL CAPS? Because it is what it is. A Christian movie.
This movie is VERY heavy on the message. So much so that I think most of the audience will be turned off. I am a Christian and have loved all of Sherwood's films. But this one was the first that seemed to have a fake Gospel message.
Now for a sentence I never thought I'd write - Kirk Cameron was great in the film. Fantastic performance.
So... I give it a 7 as a Christian movie. I liked Facing the Giants better. Also liked - End of the Spear, The List (just saw it), Beyond The Gates and Time Changer. Rick b
Thanks, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteThe scholar made a very good point in the context that I mentioned it.
I did not hear him state that we therefore could then sin and should never confess or seek repentance.
Thanks, Rick.
ReplyDeleteThe Green Goblin should work at Burger King to counter Ronald McJoker!
ReplyDeleteThe Green Goblin would run in terror if he ever saw that walking-killer-Burger-King-mannequin-come-to-life!
CAUTION: the following paragraphs and links could be disturbing to some readers! Read with discretion, since Russ has now unknowingly awakened my sick side! Don't say I didn't warn you! There's no telling what I might write next!
Commercial Scene: It's morning. Birds are chirping. A man wakes up in his bed - and discovers he's not alone! Next to him on the mattress there is some sort of...FREAKISH, CREEEPY STALKER-MONSTER WITH A GARGANTUAN PLASTIC HEAD! AAAAAAAAA! IT'S BURGER KING, COME TO KILL ME! AAAAAAAAAAAA!
That giant, oversized wax doll stalks its victims, then kills them, using their flesh to make its Whopper sandwiches!
They've even got that creepy thing featured in XBOX games now:
Big Bumpin
Check out this video game showing a creepy shadow of the Burger King stalking its victims:
Sneak King
Check this out. This is SICK (on second thought, DON'T. I'm warning you...it's very disturbing!):
The Burger Kings kills Ronald McDonald in a drive-by shooting
So much so that I think most of the audience will be turned off. I am a Christian and have loved all of Sherwood's films. But this one was the first that seemed to have a fake Gospel message.
ReplyDeleteMan, that sounds discouraging. But I have disagreed with critics before, so maybe I will disagree with this one after I have seen the film. Not everyone has the same opinions.
Hey, Robert,
ReplyDeleteNot trying to pull ideas out of the ether, Russ, and neither trying to dig up stuff to be contentious. In the day-to-day, if I go about believing that whatever sin I may commit is already forgiven before the fact, then how does it matter? It’s become an entirely moot point. There are no eternal consequences, and, arguably, no immediate consequences to my “relationship with God” since, if He’s already forgiven it, then He’s not all that upset about it either, is He?
Would you say that about your own son or daughter? If they hurt you, would you not be upset about it? If they cursed you out, or said horrible things about you, would you just laugh it off, and not mind it one bit? Of course not. But, on the other hand, you would not take them to court over it and say, "I want a judge's official decision to disown this child forever, because they called me a bad name!" That would be ridiculous. They are still your son or daughter. The relationship is bound by blood, just as our relationship with God is bound by Christ's blood (and sealed by the indwelling Holy Spirit). But that doesn't mean you never apologize for wrongdoings. If your wife says something mean to you, does it not build a wall in your relationship, that needs to be torn down by apologizing and coming together again? But that doesn't mean she stops being your wife, just because she did something that she needs to apologize for.
In the same way, we confess our sins to God to restore the intimate relationship. But, not confessing a particular sin would not mean that God would then toss us into Hell, because the blood of Jesus has already covered that Christian's sins.
Not pointing any fingers here, at all, but to say that the idea of presuming that all our future sins are pre-paid, whether or not we repent, resist sin, or flee temptation is, at the very least, a fool’s wager.
And I would say that he who never repents, resists sin, or flees temptation was never a Christian in the first place.
r.e: Not trying to pull ideas out of the ether, Russ, and neither trying to dig up stuff to be contentious. In the day-to-day, if I go about believing that whatever sin I may commit is already forgiven before the fact, then how does it matter? It’s become an entirely moot point. There are no eternal consequences, and, arguably, no immediate consequences to my “relationship with God” since, if He’s already forgiven it, then He’s not all that upset about it either, is He?
ReplyDeleteI would seriously question some of your conclusions.
Second Corinthians 5: 10 discusses the judgment seat of Christ, One of my theology professors, Earl Radmacher went on and on how we are saved and can still be judged in disobedience.
First Corinthians 3: 15 discusses a man whose work is burned up, but he is saved through fire. One view on Hebrews 6, is that it is stating something similar.
Obviously philosophically, our sin often brings negative consequences.
r.e: We obviously don’t put the onus on our own navel-gazing memories to dredge up every offense. David said, “Lord You have searched me and known me,” and “Wash me with hyssop, and I shall be clean. Wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.” God is perfectly capable and willing to do that, and much more. If we stay focused on our sins, our lives are comparable to the person who, though rescued from a disaster, remains too fixated on the horror to live a productive life afterward.
Robert, every Christian should ask and seek cleansing, but you know I believe that already.
r.e: No more so, as well as I can see it, than to say that the Blood is there to (potentially) atone for the sins of all who turn to Him in honest repentance. Our walk with the Lord is an ongoing experience, which is why the Bible doesn’t call it a “sit.”
Robert, no one is going to turn to Christ through self (Romans 1-3). Regeneration must occur. Ephesians 2 makes it clear persons are lost outside of grace through faith alone. As we are saved we have the ability to do God's will and some do more than others, therefore judgment in 2 Corinthians 5: 10 makes sense.
r.e: Well. And so allow God to deal...
I obviously am as I understand sanctification as an aspect of the salvation process.
r.e: Russ, I don’t really think I’m just the dog shaking a rag here to mention that if we leave off, in our own prayer life, the element of forgiveness then a Big Buddy presumption is not far away. Back to the original point, this kind of “approach” is very well described in Jesus’ letter to the Laodicean church, that they were so self-assured of their religion, and were at the point of being puked forth from the Lord’s body.
Robert, if persons are seeking the Lord and confessing (or asking forgiveness) and repenting of sins, it is a sign of regeneration and sanctification. No one here has eliminated the concept of forgiveness from the salvation process. One can acknowledge forgiveness as they confess and repent.
Not pointing any fingers here, at all, but to say that the idea of presuming that all our future sins are pre-paid, whether or not we repent, resist sin, or flee temptation is, at the very least, a fool’s wager.
Robert, it is error to think that in our sinful, fallen state that we could possibly be aware of all of our sins to ask forgiveness for and repent of them. Thank God, Christ's work covers all of our sins!
Now some in the Church do not believe and therefore as unregenerate will live as such. We can agree on that point.
Clearly the fact that even Christians indwelled with the Holy Spirit, and some at times filled with the Holy Spirit, sin, demonstrates sanctification is not a completed process in a Christian life. Justification therefore provides us with the righteousness of Christ (Galatians 2, Romans 4-5), as we go through the cleansing process as regenerated beings.
Lord, I pray in Jesus' name that everyone who reads this article will know the truth. I pray that we shall be open-minded and objective. I have tried to see this from various perspectives and I pray you will bless us with the truth in Jesus' name.
Cheers, Robert.
Thanks, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteWe need humour in the comments too.
Thanks for the answer, Russ, but I'm not sure that was what I was getting at.
ReplyDeleteI really strongly believe you need to prayerfully consider some of your views. I am attempting to do this also. I honestly did this during this article and comments. I suggest we avoid these kind of debates and simply attempt to better understand the other guy while still supporting the other guy's blog in comments. Notice that there is a tentative nature to many of my views. Jeff states I am a politician, but I honestly can see two or more perspectives at times. Thanks, Robert.
ReplyDeleteIn Christ,
Russ:)
Not to change the sugject, but do you guys know who (Ray Bolts) is? He is a Christian Singer, or Should I say, Was A Christian. He came out of the Closet saying he is a homo, and he does not want to be bothered with what the Bible says, he is or has divorced his wife over this. Rick b
ReplyDeleteHe came out of the Closet saying he is a homo
ReplyDeleteThanks, Rick.
You gave me a few laughs when I needed them. You made a reasonable and legitimate, but humorously worded controversial comment, right after a big dust up on this article already. Classic Rick, cheers.
I went to the Boltz site a few days ago and he seems to be embracing the homosexual lifestyle:
A MESSAGE FROM RAY
A few years ago I made the decision to retire from contemporary Christian music. I had won awards, performed in front of thousands of people, and sold millions of records. Still, I believed that if people knew who I really was, I would never be accepted. During the last few years I've learned that there are many people who feel the same way I did. One church in particular has helped me in many ways. The Metropolitan Community Church (www.mccchurch.org) was started forty years ago by Rev. Troy Perry in the Los Angeles area and has an outreach to the LGTB (Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender) community. I am happy to announce that I have accepted an invitation to perform at two of their churches. On September 14th, I will be singing at the Jesus Metropolitan Community Church (www.jesusmcc.org) in Indianapolis at 6:00p.m. On September 21st, I'll be singing at the Metropolitan Community Church of Washington, D.C. (www.mccdc.com) at 3:00p.m.
Russ:)
Ray Boltz is gay??? Wow...well, I guess we will be surprised when we get to Heaven and see who is actually saved, and who is not. We may be shocked at some to whom Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
ReplyDeleteIf he has sided with the Metropolitan church, then he has sided with the sinful, wicked lie that God accepts homosexuality. In fact, God calls it an abomination.
I see that he has divorced his wife. I also saw a quote from "Blade" which said, in part:
"I guess I felt that the church, that they had it wrong about how I felt with being gay all these years, so maybe they had it wrong about a lot of other things.”
A Christian can struggle with homosexual urges, I believe (if that perverted urge is their weakness, since we all have different weaknesses), but, if they are truly a Christian, I suspect the Holy Spirit will convict them. If they embrace that lifestyle with no repentance, then I would have to question their salvation.
Many American Christian men struggle with pornography, but the key word is struggle. If they are a Christian, they realize it is a sin.
Some who claimed to be Christians have denied the faith/Christ under strong persecution. That is a horrible tragedy.
Sex sin is a struggle for many men, as is the related problem of romantic loneliness.
ReplyDeleteWell stated, Jeff.
Hi Russ.
ReplyDeleteI wonder is there any subliminal link between confession and fast food. I did not read the comments but someone may have suggested it already.
1 John has always been one of favorites. 1 John 3:8-9 for me nails the bit that we don't need to continue confessing our sins.
I have shared this with a few people over the years and got a few interesting looks. I reason that we are perfected in him and no longer sinners. Maybe it's more Calvinistic and they think I should be more from the other side of the equation.
Anyway Russ thanks for reminding me to have a read of S&T, it is an interesting one and your are getting lot's of feedback. Just on that, can you give any stats on how many hits and from where.
Regards from Russell down under.
Hi Russ.
ReplyDeleteI wonder is there any subliminal link between confession and fast food. I did not read the comments but someone may have suggested it already.
Thanks, Russell.
Both parts of the article deal with cleansing.
I will email you on the stats info.
Russ:)
McDonalds (Dark Knight) Joker... interesting perspective !!!
ReplyDelete