Feinberg on the State of Humankind (PhD edit)
This short section has been removed from my revised PhD thesis.
Thank you for reading and commenting. I personally take a Biblical, Reformed position on the topic.
Russ
Feinberg on the State of Humankind
Feinberg deduces that basic human attributes given by God to human beings are not negated by the Biblical concept of the fall which he accepts as valid.[1] He postulates the idea that the fall led to sin existing in humanity, and that this caused human attributes not to function as they were originally intended.[2] Feinberg also believes that the fall did not overturn the basic laws of nature and physics.[3]
John Calvin writes that the original nature of human beings was corrupted due to human disobedience to God leading to the fall and a continuing sin problem in humanity.[4] This thinking likely influenced Feinberg’s concept, and Calvin also notes that human sinful nature is not humanity’s true original nature but is its derangement.[5] Calvin thought human corruption did not dwell in one part of the body, and that not one part was free of the deadly taint of corruption.[6] He notes that the nature of man both intellect and will, according to Scripture, is corrupt and opposed to God.[7]
Calvin views human corruption as leading to bondage to sin that does not allow a human being to make a voluntary movement towards goodness; by goodness Calvin means the desire to seek God, and the ability of a human being to please God without any wrong doing.[8] However, Calvin, like Feinberg centuries later, seemingly did not think that all human attributes given by God were totally negated. Calvin explains that humanity still possessed a limited free will and could seek evil and oppose God, but could not please their creator.[9] This opposition to God was not done by force or coercion by God, but was committed by humanity freely.[10] The fall would lead to, from a Calvinistic perspective, ‘total depravity’ which noted Calvinist Andrew Fuller (1754-1815)[11] describes as the notion that each person’s heart is by nature totally destitute of the love of God, and thus does not posses any true virtue that could possibly please God.[12] This type of historical, theological approach to the fall and human nature within Calvinism would certainly influence Feinberg’s sovereignty defence.
The fall was discussed in Chapter Two from the perspective of Augustine’s traditional, literal, historical view, and modern views that would disagree with that perspective.[13] For the sake of avoiding repetition I will summarize and provide some new perspectives.
Erickson reasons that from his traditional Calvinistic theology, which he views as being in line with the Apostle Paul, the fall of the human race and the resulting sin prevents human beings from properly perceiving God.[14] As noted previously, Calvin believed that humanity fell into disobedience from God.[15] However, if the fall is a debatable concept within academia, then the corrupt nature resulting from it would also be debatable. David A. Pailin explained to me it is possible that the state of humanity, as it is today, is as it has always been, that is less than perfect.[16] There is no documented historical evidence of a human civilization that did not deal with the problem of evil.[17] It may be that actual human nature and attributes do not turn towards God or the type of God that Feinberg, Calvin and Calvinists believe inspired the Bible to be written.[18]
John Macquarrie (1999) comments that since the Enlightenment, some humanists have had anti-Christian feelings in regard to notions concerning the sinful nature of humanity.[19] The humanism accepted by some modern philosophers and theologians, would not understand humanity to be corrupt.[20] Humanists often believe that human beings have proper values that do not need religious support. Many within secular academia see human beings as not being corrupt.[22] Humanists often believe that human beings have proper values that do not need religious support.[23]
[1] Feinberg (1994: 126-127).
[2] Feinberg (1994: 126-127).
[3] Feinberg (1994: 127).
[4] Calvin (1539)(1998: Book II, Chapter 2, 7).
[5] Calvin (1539)(1998: Book II, Chapter 2, 7).
[6] Calvin (1539)(1998: Book II, Chapter 2, 7).
[7] Calvin (1539)(1998: Book II, Chapter 3, 2).
[8] Calvin (1539)(1998: Book II, Chapter 3, 5).
[9] Calvin (1543)(1996: 69).
[10] Calvin (1543)(1996: 69).
[11] Green (1971: 83).
[12] Fuller (1785)(1971: 84).
[13] Augustine (398-399)(1992: 149). Jackson (1941)(2006: 1). Fretheim (1994: 152-153).
[14] Erickson (1994: 170).
[15] Calvin (1539)(1998: Book II, Chapter 2, 7).
[16] Pailin (1999: interview).
[17] Pailin (1999: interview).
[18] Pailin (1999: interview).
[19] Macquarrie (1999: 272-273).
[20] Macquarrie (1999: 272-273).
[22] Macquarrie (1999: 272-273).
[23] Macquarrie (1999: 272-273).
AUGUSTINE (398-399)(1992) Confessions, Translated by Henry Chadwick, Oxford, Oxford University Press.
CALVIN, JOHN (1539)(1998) The Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book II, Grand Rapids, Wheaton College.
http://www.smartlink.net/~douglas/calvin/
ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
FEINBERG, JOHN S. (1994) The Many Faces of Evil, Grand Rapids, Zondervan Publishing House.
FRETHEIM, TERENCE E. (1994) ‘Is Genesis 3 a Fall Story?’, in Word and World, Luther Seminary, pp. 144-153. Saint Paul, Luther Seminary.
FULLER, ANDREW (1875)(1971) ‘Point One: Total Depravity’, in Five Points of Calvinism, Grand Rapids, Sovereign Grace Publishers.
GREEN, JAY (1971) Five Points of Calvinism, ‘Forward’, Grand Rapids, Sovereign Grace Publishers.
JACKSON, JOHN G. (1941)(2006) Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth, New York, Truth Seeker Co.
MACQUARRIE, JOHN (1999) ‘Humanism’, in Alan Richardson and John Bowden (eds.), A New Dictionary of Christian Theology, Kent, SCM Press Ltd.
PAILIN DAVID A. (1999) ‘Interview’, November-December, in The University of Manchester, Manchester, The University of Manchester.
Good stuff, Russ,
ReplyDeleteGotta rib ya, though- are you saying that a Reformed Biblical position is a Biblical position, that got reformed, or a reformed position, but Biblical, or Biblical within reformed limits. Naah, in your case I think you're too Biblical to reform! Here's hoping Cambridge hires ya!!
Come by & comment on the latest post on SanctiFusion! ( http://sanctifusion.blogspot.com )
Thanks, Dr. Robert.
ReplyDeleteReformed, yes.
Ever heard of this organization called the Roman Catholic Church?;)
Russ,
ReplyDelete"David A. Pailin explained to me it is possible that the state of humanity, as it is today, is as it has always been, that is less than perfect.[16] There is no documented historical evidence of a human civilization that did not deal with the problem of evil.[17]"
This seems like a "duh" observation. Once man fell, how could any civilization be otherwise?
That statement also seems to me to prove the absurdity of this: " The humanism accepted by some modern philosophers and theologians, would not understand humanity to be corrupt.[20] Humanists often believe that human beings have proper values that do not need religious support."
I don't see any efforts by man for the improvement of man as being particularly successful.
"Many within secular academia see human beings as not being modern philosophers and theologians, would not understand humanity to be corrupt.[22] Humanists often believe that human beings have proper values that do not need religious support.[23]"
I don't really understand these last statements. Especially the "...secular academia see human beings as not being modern philosophers and theologians..." and then the repeating of that last sentence again?
Thanks,
Larry E.
Russ,
ReplyDelete'"David A. Pailin explained to me it is possible that the state of humanity, as it is today, is as it has always been, that is less than perfect.[16] There is no documented historical evidence of a human civilization that did not deal with the problem of evil.[17]"
This seems like a "duh" observation. Once man fell, how could any civilization be otherwise?'
Pailin was my advisor at Manchester for a short time. I think by this he was trying to demonstrate that the Biblical pre-fall story of Adam and Eve was not historical. I can see his point, but it is prehistoric and I reason is legitimate religious history. I do believe that the fall took place and I trust the Scriptural account in context.
'That statement also seems to me to prove the absurdity of this: " The humanism accepted by some modern philosophers and theologians, would not understand humanity to be corrupt.[20] Humanists often believe that human beings have proper values that do not need religious support."
I don't see any efforts by man for the improvement of man as being particularly successful.'
Human beings have not been able to rid humanity of its sinful nature.
'"Many within secular academia see human beings as not being modern philosophers and theologians, would not understand humanity to be corrupt.[22] Humanists often believe that human beings have proper values that do not need religious support.[23]"
I don't really understand these last statements. Especially the "...secular academia see human beings as not being modern philosophers and theologians..." and then the repeating of that last sentence again?'
Agreed, this must have been a problem when I pasted. It now states:
Many within secular academia see human beings as not being corrupt.[22] Humanists often believe that human beings have proper values that do not need religious support.[23]
Thanks,
Larry E.
Cheers, Larry.
Russ:)
Yup, they've got a big clubhouse in Italy, about a mile square, eh? So you're saying..?
ReplyDeleteTo be Reformed largely means to reform from Roman Catholic doctrine to Biblical/New Testament doctrines. Of course within that there is plenty of debate which I am not going to get into because I am primarily focusing on PhD revisions. But, for example, we have Baptist and Presbyterian Reformers who would have different views on Baptism and other issues.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Robert.
Russ:)
Well, Russ, I would comment here, but my latest post (and the one before that in the same series), while not specifically addressing all the facets of humanity pre- and post-fall, pretty much cover everything I would have written! :-)
ReplyDeleteWhat Feinberg and Calvin suggest are pretty much how I see things. Although, as you can see from my posts, I do believe that "man" (Adam) was "perfect" in his humanity for the role and purpose that he played; i.e., he was fully conformed to the role of type as he prefigured and prophecied of the Second Adam to come. Again, Hughes' work on this subject is a masterpiece!
Gotta run..., dinner's on the table!
GGM
p.s. the soccer "fight" looked a lot like the basketball "fights" we all so enjoy to watch! :-) Give me Stu Grimson vs. Bob Probert anyday!!
Thanks, Jason.
ReplyDeleteIn my PhD, I reason although Adam and Eve were morally perfect, they lacked experience, which would could be connected to maturity in a sense. I am not stating Adam and Eve were childlike.
As resurrected persons we will have experienced sin, the problem of evil and the atoning and resurrection work of Christ that the pre-fall Adam and Eve did not.
I conclude that this is the type of humanity God through Christ ultimately desires to produce. God cannot manufacture persons with experience.
Those Northern Lights look cool, especially the first photo; but those Southern Lights look eerie and ghostly.
ReplyDeleteHe postulates the idea that the fall led to sin existing in humanity, and that this caused human attributes not to function as they were originally intended.
That's a good way to put it. I think that generally, our human characteristics have both positive and negative aspects. For example, if a person is sensitive, that can be good, because they can pick up on other's pain and hurt more easily; but it can also be bad, because they can be more prone to getting their feelings hurt, and feeling sorry for themselves.
Feinberg also believes that the fall did not overturn the basic laws of nature and physics.
What about death? Apparently, there was no death before the fall. Sure, Adam and Eve ate fruits, but I don't think that necessarily meant that the plant itself died. They MAY have pulled up weeds, however, since they tended the garden, though that is mere speculation; on the other hand, there may not have BEEN any weeds before the fall. As to whether any animals were carnivores before the fall, that is debatable. Supposedly, the teeth of tigers, etc., would have to be different if they were herbivores before the fall. However, dogs sometimes eat grass, so I'm not sure whether that would necessarily have to be the case.
Calvin explains that humanity still possessed a limited free will and could seek evil and oppose God, but could not please their creator.
Yes, if anyone could be morally good enough to get to Heaven, then those persons would not need Jesus, because they could reach Heaven on their own, without the help of the Messiah.
...the fall of the human race and the resulting sin prevents human beings from properly perceiving God.
Interesting thought.
However, if the fall is a debatable concept within academia...
It would only be a debatable concept if the Bible's authority is questioned and challenged. But then, I understand that the Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, Rationalism and Deism would indeed question the divine authority of Scripture, and those influences extend until today.
Many within secular academia see human beings as not being corrupt.
And I think modern evangelism and the modern Christian church have been partly influenced by this. Hence the avoidance of words such as "repent" and "Hell."
Wow, those soccer guys in the first video fight like girls!...except for the little side head-butt and the neck grab/push at the beginning.
That one guy grabbing his head while he is sideways on the ground in the second video, looks like he's doing some sort of snake dance! And the guy in the yellow shirt gets hit in the knee but grabs his face?? And nice back-bend from that referee...he must be a limbo dancer!
LOL when those two guys collide (red-and-white shirt and black(?) shirt), and both put their hands over their faces! Also the black(?)-and-red shirt and black(?) shirt guys bumping heads is funny too, especially since the one guy has a delayed reaction.
Thanks, Jeff.
ReplyDelete'Feinberg also believes that the fall did not overturn the basic laws of nature and physics.'
'What about death? Apparently, there was no death before the fall.'
Many scholars I have read, including conservative ones like Feinberg, that my moderate conservative former pastor states is somewhat of a fundamentalist, reason that the fall did not change the fact that death occurred naturally to non-human life. They seem to reason that creation groaning in Romans 8 does not mean that all the laws of physics were overturned. Erickson has a similar view seems to me.
This is a good point, but I do not pretend to fully understand how the fall changed creation, but reason plant life probably was not meant to be everlasting but was to die in a sense as it was food, and then related plant life would renew again as it is natural in the ecology.
As stated previously, I am weary of speculating too much on these issues without seriously looking at scientific perspectives as well.
And as if I have the time now with all my PhD revisions!:) BUT, I do have to do a section on human consciousness.
Previously I was told not to discuss science, now that is changed.
Russ:)
BUT, I do have to do a section on human consciousness.
ReplyDeleteDiscussing whether the human soul or spirit is conscious immediately after death could be interesting. But I believe you have done one or more articles on that in the past.
Previously I was told not to discuss science, now that is changed.
I hate when people tell you to do something, then they change their mind and tell you to do the opposite. I've had bosses do that.
I am going to quote science journals.
ReplyDeleteI agree, Jeff. Thanks.
Humanists are having a big advertising campaign (originating in Britain) to promote atheism. The attempt to get their message on B.C. buses was rejected by Translink:
ReplyDeletestory
In Britain, the humanist campaign has provoked responses from several Christian groups:
ReplyDeletelink
"No advertisement will be accepted which promotes or opposes a specific theology or religious ethic, point of view, policy or action."
ReplyDeleteI would not mind the advertising.
'And the Russian Orthodox Church has joined in with an ad reading: "There is a God, believe. Don't worry and enjoy your life."'
Religious groups could have their say as well.
Thanks, Sir Sickles...I mean Sir Chuckles, I hope you are feeling better.
Those pictures are wild. they almost do not look real.
ReplyDeleteThe fighters should be in the UFC. I posted a recipe that just might get you a date, since a guy liked it so much he asked me to marry him over it. rick b
Thanks, Rick.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds scary.
Hi Russ,
ReplyDeleteI've got some insites that may surprise you (coming from me) on the will of man and the ability to please God.
Feinberg deduces that basic human attributes given by God to human beings are not negated by the Biblical concept of the fall which he accepts as valid.[1] He postulates the idea that the fall led to sin existing in humanity, and that this caused human attributes not to function as they were originally intended.[2] Feinberg also believes that the fall did not overturn the basic laws of nature and physics.
Calvin also notes that human sinful nature is not humanity’s true original nature but is its derangement.
referencing Calvin by goodness Calvin means the desire to seek God, and the ability of a human being to please God without any wrong doing
referencing Calvin humanity still possessed a limited free will and could seek evil and oppose God, but could not please their creator
Feinburg and Calvin agree that the attributes of man were given as a reflection of God's character. As in, "created in [the] image [of God]". Since the attributes are not negated; and, the human is free to find his way to evil, and since we are, after all created in God's image (the Bible does not take this away from us, but says, we see through a dark glass, dimly)would it not be appealing to be lead, as the Holy Spirit does, to the light of God? Does not the Holy Spirit become introduced by man to man? I believe man can begin to pursue God when he is properly (without all of the compromise) introduced to the Holy Spirit.
Jim
Thanks, Jim. We live and learn.
ReplyDeleteThe image of God in humanity although tarnished seemingly allows God to save someone. God predestines (Romans 8 and Ephesians 1) which leads to one being born again/regenerated (John 3) and indwelled with the Holy Spirit (John 20) but does not allow a person to choose God without God first choosing to mould an individual in salvation (Ephesians 2, Romans 1-3).
God does most often use human means such as preaching and Bible in the process. Therefore Calvinists and those within the Reformed movement should be evangelistic. Many are, but some within the extreme are not very interested in evangelism.
As this process begins in a person, from our human perspective, he/she seeks God with limited free will. More so, I reason a person is actually convinced by God to accept what is true and love God. God always shows the initiative.
Russ:)
Thank you for another informative article. I enjoyed the soccer spoofs too. I think they should have an oscar night for the best soccer falls of each year, along with a suspension and fine for players who commit such disgraceful antics!
ReplyDelete-Soccer Player- Retired
Good points.
ReplyDeleteThere needs to at least be more yellow cards for diving.
From Chucky's second link:
ReplyDeleteIn this Tuesday Jan. 6, 2009 file photo, Professor Richard Dawkins, the author of non-fiction book 'The God Delusion', poses for photographers in front of a London bus featuring an atheist advertisement with the slogan 'There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life'.
Ben Stein, in "Expelled," interviewed Richard Dawkins, and basically made a fool out of him.
From Russ:
I am going to quote science journals.
As pointed out in "Expelled," those science journals are biased and strongly censored, as scientists who believe in, or even mention, "Intelligent Design," (let alone "Creator," "Creation," or "God") are blacklisted and not allowed to publish their articles in the science journals.
Hello Russ,
ReplyDeleteThose were some hilarious videos, was it just me or did it seem that there were some delayed reactions to their pain? The northern lights were beautiful.
Tamela :)
Good points, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteI will review some scientific theories on consciousness.
Thanks, Tamela.
ReplyDeleteSometimes the Northern Lights have many brilliant colours.
Football/soccer is full of fakers.
Russ;)
Wou ! I saw the pictures of the Auroras, and I'm really amazed, it's so nice :) About you wrote of writing, yes, i would like one day wrote a book, or something like that... I usually write sings and that things, I love the music, i think that I cannot live without it!. Well, how are everything there? Good Luck, bye!
ReplyDeleteThanks, CH.
ReplyDeleteI find the aurora lights interesting and the Northern Lights seem to be more well-known that the Southern Lights, although I live in Canada and in the West and so I suppose we are more northern orientated. Perhaps people in the Southern Hemisphere hear more about the Southern Lights.
Blogging provides you with an outlet to write and although you write in Spanish I can at least tell from using the translator that you write poetically.
I hope this goes very well for you.
Russ
Hi Russ,
ReplyDeleteI was sitting on a deck with family members overlooking a large body of water in the mountains of Idaho. I kept seeing blobs of light that came and went for quite awhile. No one said a word. I thought just maybe I was getting sick or had a great imagination. Finally in desperation, I asked if anyone had seen any lights in the sky.
Oh yes, that was the Northern Lights. Having spent most of my tender years in the Eastern USA, I had known nothing of the splender of the Aurora.
God is so vastly creative. I am continually in awe.
Jim and I recently entered 2 African frogs into a shallow aquarium. They are so adorable. Once again, we enjoy God's creativity.
Blessings,
Vicki
Nice words, Vicki.
ReplyDeleteThanks.
Russ:)
Greetings Russ,
ReplyDeleteI do not know how you have the time to keep up all the blogging like you do but it is appreciated.
In thinking through these issues, I revert to Jesus' words in that he would not entrust himself to human beings because he knew what is in our hearts (John 02:25). His understanding of human nature makes his grace and love all the more divine in my thinking.
Joyfully Serving,
Kermit
Thanks, Kermit.
ReplyDeleteI have cut my blogging time by a fair amount.
I agree with your comments.
Russ