Church Bay, Wales (photo from trekearth.com)
While I was researching my newest article on thekingpin68, I came across this article.
Fastest growing churches
The article is by By Lillian Kwon
Christian Post Reporter
Wed, Feb. 20 2008 01:10 PM EST
Here are portions and my commentary. Please leave your own comments, cheers.
The two fastest-growing church bodies in the United States and Canada, according to a newly published report, are ones whose beliefs are known to conflict with traditional Christian teaching.
Although Jehovah's Witnesses currently rank 25th in size with over 1.06 million members, they reported a 2.25 percent increase in membership since the publication of the 2007 Yearbook. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – also known as the Mormon church – grew 1.56 percent and is listed by the NCC as the fourth largest “church.”
Jehovah's Witnesses and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, regarded by many Christians as cults, reported the largest membership increases in a year, according to the National Council of Churches' 2008 Yearbook of American & Canadian Churches.
Notably, however, both Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormon church are not accepted within many Christian circles as part of the larger Body of Christ over a number of controversial beliefs that the two religions hold. Identification of the former religion as Christian, among other controversies, is debated largely due to their rejection of the Trinity, which most Christians regard as a fundamental doctrine. Latter-day Saints, meanwhile, are often criticized for their belief in “divine” books of scripture, aside from the Bible, including the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price.
The Jehovah's Witnesses as discussed in the most recent article on thekingpin68, do reject the Trinity doctrine. Bowman (1990: 12-13). The New Testament teaches the Trinity which is the existence of one God in nature and substance in three distinctions known as Father (Matthew 28: 19), Son (John 1: 1), and Holy Spirit (Acts 5). In the New Testament, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of three distinctions in one nature and essence. Erickson states that each member of the Trinity is qualitatively the same, and they are divine in the same way. Erickson (1994: 337). The essence of the each member of the Trinity is the same, even if one distinction submits to the other at times. Erickson (1994: 338). From Erickson’s point, the triune God is one God in nature and essence, represented in three distinctions and therefore is not a three-part God. A rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity is a rejection of the Christian God.
A primary (but not only) reason most Biblical Christian authorities reject Latter-Day Saint religious movements as Christian is the issue of the nature of God. Latter-Day Saints are typically henotheists. Ronald Clements writes the henotheism is a term describing the exclusive worship of one God, while at the same time the existence of many Gods is held to. Clements (1999: 248). Clements provides the opinion that the study of ancient religion does the not produce the concept that polytheism and monotheism present distinct stages in a progression and development. Instead they indicate a contrast of emphasis in complex patterns of religious traditions. Clements (1999: 249). Latter-Day Saints would also be polytheists for believing in the existence of many Gods.
Isaiah 43 has the Lord stating that there is only one God, and that no God shall be formed after. Isaiah 44 has the Lord stating that there is only one God. In Isaiah 45 the Lord states there is no other like him, and there is no other God. This means that monotheism is true, and henotheism and polytheism are false according to the Hebrew Bible. As already noted the New Testament teaches that God is triune and of one nature and substance. There is only one God.
...Other bodies in the newly published top 25 largest churches list that reported membership increases include The Catholic Church with a 0.87 percent increase; the Southern Baptist Convention with a 0.22 percent increase; the African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church with a 0.21 percent rise; and the Assemblies of God with a 0.19 percent growth.
The greatest losses in membership were reported by The Episcopal Church, which dropped 4.15 percent in members, and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), which decreased by 2.36 percent. Both denominations are currently wracked by theological differences and the issue of homosexuality.
American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America also experienced large losses in membership, dropping 1.82 percent and 1.58 percent, respectively.
Largest 25 Churches (ranked by membership)
1. The Catholic Church – 67,515,016
2. Southern Baptist Convention – 16,306,246
3. The United Methodist Church – 7,995,456
4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – 5,779,316
5. The Church of God in Christ – 5,499,875
6. National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc. – 5,000,000
7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America – 4,774,203
8. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. – 3,500,000
9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) – 3,025,740
10. Assemblies of God – 2,836,174
11. African Methodist Episcopal Church – 2,500,000
12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America – 2,500,000
13. Progressive National Baptist Convention, Inc. – 2,500,000
14. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS) – 2,417,997
15. Episcopal Church – 2,154,572
16. Churches of Christ – 1,639,495
17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America – 1,500,000
18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. – 1,500,000
19. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church – 1,443,405
20. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. – 1,371,278
21. United Church of Christ – 1,218,541
22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International – 1,200,000
23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ – 1,071,616
24. The Orthodox Church in America – 1,064,000
25. Jehovah’s Witnesses – 1,069,530 So, for those of us who are Biblical Christians, what should we make of this report? Should Christian churches be canvassing door-to-door more often?
I could state more, but I will leave it for comments, and it allows this article to be brief.
But first:
Perhaps I should gather some blog links and start canvassing on behalf of thekingpin68. We could wear black shirts, shades, and white tags with thekingpin68 written on them. We would of course all carry concealed wood sticks for protection...from dogs as I do.
We could have a slogan: We are not a cult, but you might be in one. Love, Russ.
BOWMAN, ROBERT M. (1990) Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
CLEMENTS, RONALD (1999) ‘Henotheism’, in Alan Richardson and John Bowden (eds.), A New Dictionary of Christian Theology, Kent, SCM Press Ltd.
ERICKSON, MILLARD (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
Russ, I really don't think it's nearly as bad as all that. In fact, I'm sure it's really a lot worse. Not only do some of the "top 24" include at least one denom that avidly believes everything but the Gospel, but many endorse teachings that, if believed, guarantee that its followers will be "barren (and) unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord." In fact, maybe that's the reason that the really loopy ones are gaining such ground: Their claims might be completely ungrounded, but at least they hold to them. Our churches have spent so much effort being sensitive to the culture, but who knows how to be sensitive to the Holy Ghost?
ReplyDeleteOur churches have spent so much effort being sensitive to the culture, but who knows how to be sensitive to the Holy Ghost?
ReplyDeleteYes, in the Christian Church we need openness to the Holy Spirit and a desire for proper Biblical teaching, and lifestyles that are counter cultural.
Good points, Robert.
Thanks.
Mormons are not Creedal Christians. However, they do believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament:
ReplyDeleteThe Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity. It is the preachers who insist on the Nicene Creed definition.” It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
Further reading; http://jesuschrist.lds.org/SonOfGod/eng/
However, they do believe in the Jesus Christ of the New Testament:
ReplyDeleteIn general terms Latter-Day Saints misunderstand the Jesus of the New Testament, although I cannot speak for every single Latter-Day Saint.
A misunderstanding of the nature of God and failing to understand and know God as monotheistic within a trinity means that even though Latter-Day Saints believe in a Jesus Christ, they do not know and understand accurately the Christ of the Bible. Also, Jesus Christ is not one of many gods, but the only God within New Testament theology.
Jesus stated in Matthew 24 that there will be false Christs and false prophets and therefore I reason the Latter-Day Saints are one of these groups.
Matthew 7:22-23
Matt
ESV
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination.
That is nonsense. There are thousands of manuscripts of the New Testament which support orthodox Christian doctrine. None support henotheism, polytheism, and justification/salvation by works (Ephesians 2: 8-10, Galatians 2: 16).
The LDS church and loosely related movements would need to find New Testament era documents from within the group of disciples and apostles, not heretics that would support the much later views of Smith, Young and following. This has not been found, and I state will not be found.
For example, Harper’s Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
This objection has been answered again and again for LDS from Christians. I think I have answered it at least twice previously myself. It is not a good objection. The concept was taught in the New Testament, but the word Trinity does not appear.
A comprehensive evaluation of the doctrine of the Trinity could easily be a PhD dissertation, but there are good explanations of the doctrine. Thiessen admits that the word Trinity is not in Scripture, and he writes that the term was perhaps first used by in the Greek as Trias by Theophilus of Antioch (d. 181) and then in the Latin by Tertullian (d. ca. 220). Thiessen (1956: 135). Thiessen explains that the idea behind the Trinity is that from the New Testament there are three external distinctions, in the one divine nature, as they are known to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Thiessen (1956: 135). These three persons are not to be confused as being the same or are they of a different substance. Thiessen (1956: 135). Thiessen points out that the Trinity is not Tritheism, as there are not three distinct Gods. Thiessen (1956: 135). He also explains that Biblical Christianity does not hold to Sabellianism (third century) as this would understand God as having three qualities within one person. Thiessen (1956: 135). Sabellianism does not hold to real distinctions existing, but merely names that are used at different times. Erickson (1994: 334). God would work in different modes, and this is known as modalism. Grenz, Guretzki, and Nordling. (1999: 79). H.E.W. Turner writes that Sabellianism is an alternate description of modalism which gave the doctrine in its most sophisticated form. Turner (1999: 514). Robert M. Bowman notes that the Trinitarian faith does not allow for the dividing of substance. Bowman (1990: 13). The persons present in the Trinity are not representing three separate beings with differing natures of differing substance, but to Bowman they are three personal distinctions each fully God. Bowman (1990: 13).
There are numerous verses supporting the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as God. One notable one is Matthew 28: 18-20. My latest article on each blog lists some.
BOWMAN, ROBERT M. (1990) Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
ERICKSON, MILLARD. (1994) Christian Theology, Grand Rapids, Baker Book House.
GRENZ, STANLEY J., DAVID GURETZKI and CHERITH FEE NORDLING (1999) Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms, Downers Grove, Ill., InterVarsity Press.
THIESSEN, HENRY C. (1956) Introductory Lectures in Systematic Theology, Grand Rapids, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.
TURNER, H.E.W. (1999) ‘Sabellianism’, in Alan Richardson and John Bowden (eds.), A New Dictionary of Christian Theology, Kent, SCM Press Ltd.
One Baptist blogger stated “99 percent of the members of his Baptist church believe in the Mormon (and Early Christian) view of the Trinity.
There is error in many places.
It seems to me the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).
Christian leaders need to take a stand for Biblical truth and respectfully discuss organizations that started in the 19th century that do not interpret Scripture correctly and yet want to be called Christians.
Thanks.
Russ
Claiming to believe in Jesus does not make anyone a Christian. Jesus said:
ReplyDelete"21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:21-27 KJV)
One LDS false doctrine holds that the blood of Jesus Christ does not atone for all sins, which is an offense to the Son of God. Mormon apostle Bruce McConkie states:
ReplyDelete"But under certain circumstances there are some serious sins for which the cleansing of Christ does not operate, and the law of God is that men must then have their own blood shed to atone for their sins. Murder, for instance, is one of these sins; hence we find the Lord commanding capital punishment."... "President Joseph Fielding Smith has written: "Man may commit certain grievous sins -- according to his light and knowledge -- that will place him beyond the reach of the atoning blood of Christ. If then he would be saved, he must make sacrifice of his Own life to atone -- so far as in his power lies -- for that sin, for the blood of Christ alone under certain circumstances will not avail. . . . Joseph Smith taught that there were certain sins so grievous that man may commit, that they will place the transgressors beyond the power of the atonement of Christ. If these offenses are committed, then the blood of Christ will not cleanse them from their sins even though they repent. Therefore their only hope is to have their own blood shed to atone, as far as possible, in their behalf"' [Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, pp. 133-138]" (Mormon Doctrine, Bruce McConkie, pages 92-93)
This quote is from an apostle of the Mormon Church stating that the blood of Jesus does not atone for all sins, even if they repent. Bruce McConkie also stated that this was taught by Joseph Smith and President Joseph Fielding Smith which gives this special validation to what the Mormon Church teaches. This clearly contradicts with Scripture, which teaches:
"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin....If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us (our) sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:7&9 KJV)
Mormons say they believe in God. However, the Bible says that even the devil believes that.
ReplyDeleteThe Mormon Church teaches that God was once a man who became a God, but this is unbiblical and heretical. Joseph Smith said:
"I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man. God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible. Say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form, like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 345)
According to Joseph Smith God has not always been God, but was a man first who became a God. The Scriptures clearly state that God has always been God. (Deut. 4:39, Psalms 93:2, Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26) To teach that God was at one time not God is clearly a false doctrine.
"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalms 90:2 KJV)
from:
http://www.afcministry.com/Are_Mormons_Christians.htm
"4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]...13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds." (2 Corinthians 11:4 & 13-15 KJV)
ReplyDelete"So, for those of us who are Biblical Christians, what should we make of this report? Should Christian churches be canvassing door-to-door more often?"
ReplyDeleteEven if we followed right behind the "false" witnesses door-to-door, I don't think we would NECESSARILY have any greater success in our Christian witness. But to the extent that we are not sharing the gospel with our neighbors and in our neighborhoods (by our lives and our speech) , we are disappointing our Lord and betraying a lack of love for Christ and our fellow human being, who is made in His image. And of course, without a noticeable Christian witness, these false gospels have little resistance from the truth.
The stats don't really bother me, personally. I think true, Biblical Christianity will always be the minority (even in "Christian" churches) in this age because "narrow is the gate that leads to life and few are they who find it". In contrast, it is the many who enter the wide gate (even of those who belong to "Christian" churches) which leads to destruction because the masses will always seek a "righteousness" of their own. This is just the way it is.
So the stats don't bother me and I don't think they should bother any Christian. What should bother us is whether or not we are faithful with gospel in our interaction with others; not that we are the ones who are responsible for the destruction of the many, but we are resonsible to live lives of integrity, lives of truth.
Paul tells us that God "manifests through us the sweet aroma of the knowledge of Him in every place" because "we are the fragrance of Christ to God" among all that are in the world. We are the "aroma" of either death (to those who are dying, who do not want the righteousness of Christ but only their own righteousness) or of life (to those who are being called by God out of the dominion of darkness and into the light of the Kingdom of His Son).
So it's not the stats that should bother us. We should be bothered, however, if we find that we're not living lives testifying of the transforming power of the Gospel, if by our very beings as "New Creations" in Christ(which manifests itself in our speech and the way we live) we are not dispensing the fragrance of Christ in the world. We should be bothered if we, at times, find ourselves attempting (by our lack of "witnessing") to hide our light (which Jesus says is ultimately impossible for the true citizen of the Kingdom).
Should we go "door-to-door" like the false witnesses? I don't think that's really necessary. But we should be true to our calling as children of God. If we live our lives by the leading and power of the Spirit by believing what God says about us is true (that we are His Children and citizens of the Kingdom), then we will "naturally" be proclaiming the (true) gospel of Christ by the very lives that we live.
Great Googly Moogly!,
ReplyDeleteExcellent post!
Except that I disagree with you on this:
Should we go "door-to-door" like the false witnesses? I don't think that's really necessary.
Witnessing/evangelism is something that few Christians do today, it seems.
One time a friend of mine and myself were going door-to-door, and we came up to a Jehovah's Witness house. The guy thought we were Jehovah's Witnesses, because he didn't believe that any Baptists went door-to-door. He was shocked.
Another time, I was sitting in my front yard, talking to a JW. He was boasting about how he was so spiritual, and how his religion must be right, because he would go out on a regular basis to talk to people about God. He asked if I ever did that, betting that I would say 'no,' and I told him that a friend and I had recently gone down the block that was across the street from us. He didn't believe me at first, but I assured him that we had.
Jamie pointed out the repeated paragraph which I deleted. This was likely a Blogger error from when I cut and pasted. Thanks, Zombie.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Jeff.
Human beings absolutely cannot atone for their own sins.
Christ as infinite God and perfect finite man, outlasted human finite sin, covered sins and paid the penalty for the sins of fallen humanity. This is the atonement.
God is spirit as in John 4: 24. And as Jeff noted from Romans 16: 26, God is eternal God.
An infinite being has eternal life, and the finite being which has a beginning could only manage everlasting life if the being never ceases to exist.
An infinite being has infinite knowledge and a finite being has limited knowledge and at best can only keep learning.
Philosophically, it is impossible for a finite being to become infinite.
GGM, thank you.
ReplyDeleteThe Christian Church needs reformation, I think we agree. But, we do not need restoration as some pseudo-Christian movements would suggest we need.
I agree Christians will be a minority in this realm, but we need to purify the Church of error in teaching and practice, and we need the Holy Spirit, the Bible, and sound theology to accomplish this task.
Russ:)
Concerning door-to-door canvassing. I am not opposed to it, but personally do not like it for myself. My personal evangelism technique, and teaching technique for believers, which I think works, is the philosophical talk. In other words, an unofficial, informal discussion about the world, philosophy and religion. Being as I am a theologian I can tie in my worldview with my educational pursuits.
ReplyDeleteHey Jeff!
ReplyDeleteI guess what I was referring to is the thinking that if I were to go door-to-door to "witness" for Christ, then I've fulfilled my "Christian" obligation. This is nothing more than what the "false" witnesses are doing. If we think our Christianity is authentic just because we knock on our neighbours door and tell him/her about Jesus (which I'm not at all suggesting that you are saying), but then our lives betray the transformation that has come in Christ, then our words are nothing but a hinderance. My concern is over a canvassing of the neighborhood out of a sense of "duty" but not as a reflection of who we truly are in Christ and the "love" for our neighbor that that produces.
I think that if we are truly filled and led by the Spirit, then God will make opportunity for us to witness for Christ. Of course, that may be actually going door-to-door (as in your case), or it may be other avenues. But our obligation is to let the Spirit lead and direct us and to be faithful as Children of God.
But I do understand your concern for evangelism and I do share it; I just don't think a "program" of door-to-door witnessing is necessarily the answer (not that I think this is what you are suggesting--I don't). If we are led by the Spirit to do that (as it seems that you were), then yes, by all means we should obey God and let Him use us in that way.
I also agree with you Russ. I believe the Christian church should be active in "purifying" itself by being doctrinally correct and practicing church discipline. The Church is the light of the world because it is the Body of Christ who is THE Light of the world. And for the Gospel to shine in a dark world which is at enmity with God, the light must shine brightly, which it doesn't do when its "members" are not truly Christian and when its "doctrine" is anti-Christ. The Church will always prevail, as Christ has told us, but it should be active in making sure that it is dealing correctly with false doctrine and "illegitimate" children.
But I'm not sure what you mean by, "We do not need restoration as some pseudo-Christian movements would suggest we need." Was this in response to something I said?
Anyway, Christian evangelism can be a thorny subject. We all know what our obligation is, but we don't always know or agree how it is that we should practice it. This is why I'm always stressing the concept of "Be Who You Are". If we simply (though I know, in practice it's not always "simple") live out our lives according to the truth of the New Creation, according to the truth of who we are in Christ and in the leading of the indwelling Spirit, then our "practice" will take care of itself. We shouldn't have to be thinking that we need to "do" something--we should simply "be" Children of God; then the world (including our neighbours) will know that we are witnesses of Christ without us having to set up a bunch of "to do" programs in order to inform the world of this.
Those are my "two-cents" worth and I'm sticking to it...for now :-)
Am I getting paid by the word? If so, consider this my "ten-cents" worth and cut me a check in the morning! :-)
But I'm not sure what you mean by, "We do not need restoration as some pseudo-Christian movements would suggest we need." Was this in response to something I said?
ReplyDeleteWe are cool, GGM.
The Latter-Day Saints and Jehovah's Witnesses are false restoration movements.
Thanks, GGM, as always.
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Russ,
ReplyDeleteConcerning door-to-door canvassing. I am not opposed to it, but personally do not like it for myself.
See, too many Christians say they don't feel comfortable doing that, or they claim that's not their "gift." I wonder if that is the local church's fault. Shouldn't Christians be learning how to do this, and shouldn't they be actively doing this as part of the local church outreach? Shouldn't the local church be teaching its congregation how to do this? I do not believe that door-to-door is the only method of evangelism, nor is it the only valid method of evangelism. But I do think that it is, along with practically any sort of street witnessing, largely ignored by almost all local churches, at least here in the U.S. My concern is that too many church members are content to keep within the walls of the church, rather than spreading the gospel, as the Bible commands us to. Russ, you and others here are indeed sharing your faith in your blogging, and I'm sure in other ways, too. But too many Christians seem to keep their faith confined within the local church walls.
Great Googly Moogly!,
ReplyDeleteI guess what I was referring to is the thinking that if I were to go door-to-door to "witness" for Christ, then I've fulfilled my "Christian" obligation.
OK, I getcha now. And I agree!
My concern is over a canvassing of the neighborhood out of a sense of "duty" but not as a reflection of who we truly are in Christ and the "love" for our neighbor that that produces.
You are exactly right, and that is an excellent point. Though both Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons seem zealous because they go door-to-door so much, their reason for doing it is really because they are trying to work their way to Heaven. They don't understand that Jesus took care of that for us. They don't understand that, if they will surrender to Christ Jesus as God the Son, and as the Lord of their lives, and repent of their sins, He will forgive them of all their sins, and they will then be given eternal life. It cannot be earned. Christ already paid the price for us. If we accept Him as our God, and give up our lives to Him, we won't have to worry about trying to work our way to Heaven anymore. And we will then have the freedom to serve Him out of love, not out of guilt or duty.
I think that if we are truly filled and led by the Spirit, then God will make opportunity for us to witness for Christ. Of course, that may be actually going door-to-door (as in your case), or it may be other avenues. But our obligation is to let the Spirit lead and direct us and to be faithful as Children of God.
I agree, and I don't think that door-to-door evangelism is the only or necessarily even the best method. I just think that it is very much neglected, and I wish more Christians would do it. And, as you said, the most important thing is that we go under the leading of the Holy Spirit. That doesn't mean that we sit at home until the Holy Spirit tells us to go out and witness, because the command to witness has already been given by God. However, it does mean that we pray for guidance and direction, and that we do it under the power of the Holy Spirit, not in the strength of the flesh. We must be in the Word and in prayer, and be walking in obedience to Him, or else our witnessing will be ineffective.
I just don't think a "program" of door-to-door witnessing is necessarily the answer...
I agree. There is not one 'method' that is superior to all other methods. My main concern is that too many Christians are not sharing their faith at all, or only very little. And, too often, I have heard Christians say they're not doing it because they don't know how, or because they are afraid. That is why I really like the Way Of The Master books, videos, TV programs and websites.
Hi Jeff,
ReplyDeleteIt is important for Christians to witness in action and in word. For some door-to-door is a method, others such as myself may prefer face-to-face philosophical talks with an acquaintance or friend, rather than knocking on a stranger's door. Some persons may prefer a preaching approach.
Certainly to limit witness to blogging would be silly and good subject matter for a satirical cartoon.
Thanks.
Russ:)
Interesting information, Russ. This is the kind of information that reminds me of 'the tides of change'.
ReplyDeleteI don't see that anyone of the 'cult' denominations will ever be rated to show that man has confidence in their teachings. The idea (I think from Jason) that Christians are hated and will always be the minority is not entirely the case. I don't know what to call it. However, most Christian denominations that are reasonably sound in doctrine do not suffer being among the few in Christian denominations. It is those denominations that stray far away from well documented Christian beliefs that are seen as cults and are quite honestly, the minority.
I suppose Christians are often and usually the minority in a culture, but this is not always the case. You make a good point, Jim.
ReplyDeleteChristians are not going to be hated in every single instance, but on the other hand it can be expected to happen in general terms.
From the ESV:
John 15: 18-19
18 “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
I am not an expert of church growth, but my focus is on sound theology as we are being led by the Holy Spirit.
Thanks, Jim.
16. Churches of Christ – 1,639,495
ReplyDeleteI hear that number is shrinking . . .
My denomination is not on the list, but our church plant just closed. I am back at the 'mother' church that planted.
ReplyDeleteAny theories on why the COC is shrinking, Wade?
Cheers,
Russ:)
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Forsoothe, me thynketh ye Camelot Group may yette bee legit. Thatte emaile were writ in ye offyces of ye Lagos (Goate ande) Camel Lot!
ReplyDeleteRight on, y'all for the good feedback on the Latter-Day Ain'ts. Not trying to be rude, but they honestly ain't saints 'til Jesus the Eternal Son has sanctified them by the power of His all-sufficient blood and the fullness of His Divine Spirit. Googly, bro, you're bang on about needing to get busy spreading the Faith, but dang, y'all, we do need to get on board with Romans 1:16. Not just the "not ashamed" part, but where it says the Gospel is the "power of God unto salvation." Most of the Church, even the "gospel" churches, get the "pray this prayer" altar counselling, feelgood preaching week after week, and no matter how not ashamed folks can be they'd be like Ahimaaz, who ran well, but forgot to get the message before he ran. Can we answer hard questions? Can we even say who we are except that we're not the other folks? Do we really think that revival is something that God just sovereignly decides to "send" when it suits Him?
Forsoothe, me thynketh ye Camelot Group may yette bee legit. Thatte emaile were writ in ye offyces of ye Lagos (Goate ande) Camel Lot!
ReplyDeleteCool, Robert.
Right on, y'all for the good feedback on the Latter-Day Ain'ts.
They will need to do better than they have in the last 178 years finding Biblical manuscripts to support their heretical doctrines, to persuade me whatsoever.
Much of their material is closer to science fiction than Christian theology.
Do we really think that revival is something that God just sovereignly decides to "send" when it suits Him?
Robert, I am not in control of what God does, or what any angelic being or human being does. I do my best with my blogs, my career, and my life and ask that God guide me as his willing and yet imperfect servant. Whether there is revival or not is out of my hands, but I wish to live as a revived person.
Thanks.
I think its worth pointing out, given the statistics in that report, that many denoms fudge their numbers; for instance, Mormons, JW and even RC, once you have been on their members books, they will not take you off it even at your askance if you leave those denoms and convert to true Christanity. The ony way they will remove your name, is by being convicted by excommuncation.
ReplyDelete"Can we even say who we are except that we're not the other folks?"
ReplyDeleteWell Robert, if ALL we can say about ourselves is that we're not the other folks, then our understanding of the Gospel and the transformation that it (by the Spirit) produces is either seriously lacking or non-existent. And THAT is what is the problem with our churches today--this trite, "alter-callish" gospel that has no power unto salvation.
If we don't know "who we are" as Christians, i.e. what has taken place in Christ (and by implication, in us) and how that as affected us as "New Creations" in Him, then we will live as "powerless" Christians (if we are Christians at all). The Spirit indwells each of us that is truly a Child of God; and if the Spirit indwells us, the life of Christ that He is producing in us (conforming us in His image and likeness) will begin to "naturally" manifest in how we live in this world.
This is what I'm talking about by simply "being who you are". If we can get our arms around who we are as Spirit-indwelled "New Creations" in Christ, then our lives as grateful children will look like the life of Christ because that is the work of the Spirit; and we will WANT to participate in the life of Christ that is in us. Look at Paul (or any NT writer, for that matter): everywhere in his writings he's calling us to know who we are FIRST, and then to live accordingly. We can't be people who are directed by a list of things that we think we should be doing. He stresses the importance of "knowing Him" and yielding to the Spirit as He directs our lives as witnesses of Christ. If we will "be" who we are, then we will, by the leading of the Spirit, "do" what He asks of us--as loving children "do" the will of their Father (does that remind you of anyone?--Jesus Himself, perhaps?).
Jesus didn't set out to "do" anything but "be" who He was--God's Son, the fulfillment of the OT. Now, as Children of God IN CHRIST, we are also called to live authentically as Children of God. We are to "be" His Children, which is simply to believe Him and live accordingly. If we have any righteousness in what we "do", it is simply the righteousness that comes from living authentically as the transformed, Spirit-led Children of God that we are IN CHRIST.
The problem with telling people what they should be "doing" is that people have the tendency to look at their "performance" as what is pleasing to God. We can easily get caught up looking to what we've been "doing" for the Kingdom, rather than looking to Christ and what He has done. If we begin to consider what we've been doing as a barometer for whether or not we're pleasing to our Father, then we may end up like the "children" of Matt. 7 who did all the right things but didn't know Christ because He didn't know them (Matt. 7:13-23). But you may say to me, see...Jesus says that we must "do" the will of His Father--but didn't these already "do" the will of God? So what is the will of God? It is to believe in He (Christ) whom God has sent. If we truly believe, then by the power of the indwelling Spirit, our lives will progressively look like Jesus' life--who lived His life not by "doing" things, but simply in conformity to who He was (which manifested itself in certain ways).
There is probably just a subtle difference between our thinking here, Robert; but it is a subtlety that I think is very important. It is easy to fall back into "performance" thinking. That's the thinking of the "world": if I "do" enough, then God will be happy with me. I don't think this is what YOU are saying, but it is an easy trap to fall into. I believe that if we truly know who we are (by knowing who Christ is and what has taken place in Him), and continue (as Paul) to "learn" Him (who He was and now who WE are in Him), then our lives (our speech and our actions in this world) will take care of itself.
If you're interested, check out some of my early posts as I tried to lay a foundation for this focus of thinking.
"Do we really think that revival is something that God just sovereignly decides to "send" when it suits Him?"
I do. Of course, He uses His Children to accomplish His purposes in this world; but revival, true revival, never comes unless it is the work of God. If we attempt a "revival" on our own, apart from the work of the Spirit it will be a "false" revival. Don't you agree?
I'm not saying that we should just sit back passively and "do" nothing. All I'm saying is that for us to be "obedient", it is not because we are trying to "do" obedience; it will be because we are true Children who are even now being transformed into the image and likeness of Christ. Our lives will manifest this transformation in our character and how we live. We don't have to try to "do" anything...just "be" who we are as God's Children.
This was rather loooooong and I wrote this rather fast (as Mrs. Googly wants me to go with her to pick up some plants for the garden), so please take this in the spirit that it was given. I'm sure my grammer was off as well as my spelling. I'm just trying to clarify what I said earlier.
I don't think Robert and I disagree over very much (or anything, if I've been any more clear here).
Thanks for responding to me on this. I know I need to be as clear as possible when I speak (or write). I'm not sure I did very much better here, my friend...but I tried. :-)
For the Person who said "Mormons are Christians" your so far off from the truth, it's not funny. Check out my blog. I have questions that no mormon has yet to answer.
ReplyDeleteNow onto the Issue of, Door to door. I am fine with people doing it and not doing it. For me I do not think Churchs should "teach" Doing this. I believe that it all boils down to love, We can share info, but if love is not their, whats the point?
If your doing it like the Mormons or JW's simply because you must, then dont bother.
I believe friendship is the best way to do it, Witness at work, at play, talk to people and show you really care. One way our Church does it is, We fire up a big grill, Members of the church provide all sorts of food, and every thursday from 4:30 to 7pm we feed everyone without fail or question. Then from 7 to 9 pm we have church service in the park.
We do not tell people, in order to eat, you must stick around. Then when people ask us, are you a Church? we ask them, why do you think we are a church?
We dress in Jeans, T-shirts Etc. We do not tell people or let on we are a Church. Then when we reply with, Why do you think we are a church? People do not really know what to say, So we point out, Are you asking us if we are a church, because you never see Athiest groups simply feeding everyone for free no questions asked?
Then to just remind people, Not everyone will give their lives to Christ. Just because these so called "Churchs" have huge numbers really means nothing.
2 things here, Jesus said, Narrow is the Gate that leads to life, and few here find it.
then we read the book of Jeremiah, His ministry was from God himself, How many people do you read about in Jeremiahs 40 year ministry Listing to him and coming back to the Lord? A whopping ZERO PEOPLE.
And for anyone who Knows JW's or even Mormonism, they both will tell you, Not everyone who claims to be in either Group fully believes or follows, they simply are Pew warmers for lack of a better word.
It seems they simply went to a "Church" because someone knocked on their door and invited them. Rick b
A reasonable point, thanks Deejay.
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Thanks, Rick.
ReplyDeleteRick's blog in my links, Mormonism Reviewed, does provide a useful ministry.
GGM, I will let Robert know of your reply. Cheers.
Brother Googly,
ReplyDeleteThanks for that one part, especially, about people realising who they are in Christ. That is a good reminder of some tasty teaching from the past. In this culture, though, we have a bit of a hazard there with so much "me" in the "theology," that we too often find a spicy serving of "me-ology" coming across the pulpit. There's a precarious balance there, from my seat, between singing, "I Did it My Way" and "Take my Life and Let me Be." Of course, both are deadly choices. Is it Philippians that says, "..work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God that works in you..?" There is a great little book by Dennis Kinlaw I think you would love reading: Let's Start with Jesus by Dennis Kinlaw. Kinlaw has been a simple country preacher, Ph.D. theologian, and more for longer than the likes of us have been kicking rocks, and I have yet to meet anyone with a less than enthusiastic response to his work.
Brother Googly, you said,
If we attempt a "revival" on our own, apart from the work of the Spirit it will be a "false" revival. Don't you agree?
A revival is, to me, about people repenting of their sins and duplicities and calling on the Lord for His saving mercy. Yes, it is by His grace that we call on Him to start with, but do we honestly imagine that He is generally withholding that grace from us, or is He calling us even now to turn from our lives of compromise and love for this world to be restored into a radical life of love in Him?
Shalom, Brother- Everlasting!
Thanks Robert,
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that there is a tendency within the church to think of ourselves more highly than we should (even as Paul warned some in his day); but that's because, in my opinion, people really don't understand the gospel like they should (or their place in it). There is a definite "man-centeredness" ideology that is rampant in the church (especially in the WOF movement). I think the more we learn who Christ is and what He has accomplished, this self-centeredness will be changed to Christ-centeredness; and when this happens, a correct "anthropology" will guide our understanding. We must know who we are in Christ to properly understand who we are as image-bearers.
On a lighter note, since I'm a closet Frank Sinatra fan, I'll have to take "I did it my way"! :-)
Besides, this song holds a special meaning for me: I think I won Mrs. Googly's heart (or more likely, her sympathy) when I sang this song with my friend at the top of my lungs at the local bar one drunk evening before Christ came calling oh so long ago. No, wait a minute...that was "New York, New York"! Oh well...it's Frank, so it's gotta be good, right?
GGM :-)
That's funny. My son gained some major points with his dear one singing Bing Crosby's "Dear old Donegal!" Maybe I should take crooning lessons?
ReplyDeleteThanks, Robert and Jason.
ReplyDeleteI took a break from blogging tonight. Two friends came out from Vancouver and we played the board game 'Zombies!!!'. I also had my friends play Actua Soccer 3. There were good laughs tonight.
Russ:)
On the issue of "revival Meetings" Or simply "revival". Here is my Problem, where I live many Churchs have Weekly "revival" meetings.
ReplyDeleteIs your Church or a Church so dead or dying that they need these "revival" meetings EVERY WEEK?
I suggest reading the bible daily, that should help. Also the word "revival" implys you need to be revived, which means to me your dying. if every week your dying, then no wonder your not sharing Christ. But that is just me.
I go to a calvary chapel, we go verse by verse chapter by chapter through the Bible. We theirfore never need to be "revived" since we know the Word of God. Rick b
Mormons aren't Christian?
ReplyDeleteThis is a great video about
Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtEQ8Tjr2EI&feature=related
(copy and paste entire URL)
It has answered a lot my questions about Jesus and God. :)
The clip is from the LDS...figures.;) Have you considered other sources as well?
ReplyDeleteThank you for commenting.
Three main problems with the LDS I shall present (there are more):
1. Scripture states that there is only one God, Isaiah 43, 44, 45, and Deuteronomy 6: 4-6, for example. Matthew 22 and Mark 12 continue with the theme and state persons are to love this God only. There is no Biblical option, as in henotheism, to worship one God and yet believe in other gods.
Please with an open mind prayerfully examine this article which points out a fatal philosophical flaw with the LDS concept of gods.
vicious regress
The Trinity is a Biblically based concept.
From:
trinity
Portion:
Robert M. Bowman notes that the Trinitarian faith does not allow for the dividing of substance. Bowman (1990: 13). The persons present in the Trinity are not representing three separate beings with differing natures of differing substance, but to Bowman they are three personal distinctions each fully God. Bowman (1990: 13).
2. Ephesians 2 is clear that no person is saved by works. Works are a sign of being saved by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)
8For (A)by grace you have been saved (B)through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is (C)the gift of God;
9(D)not as a result of works, so that (E)no one may boast.
10For we are His workmanship, (F)created in (G)Christ Jesus for (H)good works, which God (I)prepared beforehand so that we would (J)walk in them.
James discusses a similar idea when he states in James 2 that faith is dead without works and therefore works are a sign of a faith that is alive.
Please read Romans 1-5, and Galatians 1-2.
3. The Scriptures are consistent in message, culminated in the New Testament and have not been altered in theological content. There is no need for further Scriptural Revelation.
From:
manuscripts
Portion:
W.R.F. Browning explains that canon comes from the Greek word for 'rule' or 'standard'. In both the Old and New Testaments canon formation was gradual and controversial. Browning (1996: 57). Browning notes some New Testament era books were quoted by Church Fathers, although the texts were not canonized. Browning (1996: 57). Jesus Christ's teachings and story was passed along in oral tradition and then eventually written down in the Four Gospels, and sidelined rival versions. Browning (1996: 57). The Epistles from Apostles and their scribes were preserved by the churches and soon formed a collection along with the Gospels. Browning (1996: 57).
Am I overly concerned that some inspired texts have been excluded from the New Testament canon? No.
The twenty-seven books contain the same basic Gospel and theology.
Contrary texts have been weeded out by Church Fathers.
Even if an inspired text is missing from the canon, and God has willingly allowed this, which I doubt, the current canon, along with the Hebrew Bible, provides correct history and teaching concerning the Old Testament, the Gospel, primary theological issues, and in my view, many secondary theological issues.
In closing, you still need to be asking a lot more questions from a lot more sources about Christ. Please do not just take the word of Smith, Young and following.
Russ:)
When it comes to these cults and the churchs growing, they tend to believe growth proves they are the real and true churches.
ReplyDeleteBut the bible says that the road to life is narrow but the way to death is broad and many go their. Rick b
Well stated, Rick.
ReplyDeleteThere is objective truth.
There is popular philosophy and theology.
Facts and reason within a legitimate perception determine reality, humanly speaking.