My Facebook friend and blog link Leroy of
Professor Howdy
and
My Thoughts on Life
posted a link from Michael Spencer:
Monitor: Evangelical Collapse
I left the following reply on Facebook to the Spencer article...oh yea once again Facebook is not the new Blogger!;) The Spencer article portions are in quote marks
In regard to evangelicalism and politics:
'1. ... This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society. '
This sounds reasonable.
In regard to the development of young evangelicals:
'2. ...Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.'
This is true in many cases...people are not interested in theology and Christian philosophy, in other words what is behind a Christian worldview.
A possible evangelical collapse:
'3...coming evangelical collapse will not result in a second reformation, though it may result in benefits for many churches and the beginnings of new churches.'
Reasonable, but hopefully there will be another Reformation.
For this blog I will add the following:
In regard to evangelicalism and politics:
'1. ... This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society. '
First, I should note that although I consider myself theologically evangelical, I would see myself as primarily Christian and Reformed.
It seems from the American media and reading blogs that it is becoming more difficult over time to be socially conservative in the United States. This attitude of the mainstream media and the many of the masses against social conservatism is even more prevalent in Canada and Western Europe. Social conservatism and its values are often tied to Biblical Christianity and therefore Biblical Christianity may face increased opposition over time.
Satirically, in The Socialist Paradise of Canada we have a land area slightly larger than that of the Excited States of Americana, and so if enough Americans from the 'red states' moved here perhaps we could create a conservative nation up north somewhere and then separate from Canada like some of the Quebecois desire with Quebec.
In regard to the development of young evangelicals:
'2. ...Our young people have deep beliefs about the culture war, but do not know why they should obey scripture, the essentials of theology, or the experience of spiritual discipline and community. Coming generations of Christians are going to be monumentally ignorant and unprepared for culture-wide pressures.'
I have reasoned this for years based on another problem I have faced. That being that I can find so few women to relate enough to ask out on a date. Many evangelical women (not all) simply are not theological enough to relate to a theologian. I can attempt to stop being so theological all the time but inevitably I look at things philosophically and theologically and I need a women to relate to that aspect of me at least somewhat. I am not stating she should have a theology or related degree.
Now, I realize that I do not live in Christianized America and that since I have been a student for so long I have not had the social life needed to date often. And yes, I have made mistakes, but not with a right one.
The End.
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A real life Fred Flinstone?
The following you do not want to state to fellow bloggers when you are in a dispute!
Thanks Mom, for sending.
This photo from a previous post has been bringing in some traffic and so I present once again...Vinyl Man
I Love the granny comments; I can't decide which one I like the best!
ReplyDelete"Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society."
This is a shame, of course, but I think this is because mainstream "evangelical" Christianity seems to see the role of Christians in this world as simply affecting national policy or social concerns through political strategy. I don't think we (in America, anyway) understand the biblical model of "culture making".
Michael Wittmer's book, "Heaven is a Place on Earth: Why Everything You Do Matters to God" is an excellent "intro" into thinking about our lives here in this world more biblically and, therefore, understanding how to affect change in our society.
Another excellent book that I'm reading right now is, "Culture Making: Recovering our Creative Calling" by Andy Crouch. This is a more detailed look at who we were created to be as human beings (first, then as we are recreated as Christians) and therefore what our role and purpose is in God's creation. I really like this book as it focuses on the various ways we tend to interact with culture without necessarily purposeful engagement in culture. We all are by nature (who we are as human beings) "cultural creatures"; but we're called to be "creative culture makers" of the highest degree.
As Christians (Western Christians, anyway) we get so narrowly focused on certain (mainly political) arenas of life that we effectively forget who we are as human beings (first) and "Christians" (second). Our society is going downhill because we are not viewing ourselves and our role in this world biblically-we're only concerned about ourselves and being "right" rather than cultivating the proper understanding of our calling as human beings made in the image of God.
Everything we do matters because everything we do either testifies of the grace of God in Christ or the self-righteousness that still plagues us as Christians. We can stand for the truth all the while effectively turning the masses away from Christ by our self-righteous attitude. I'm afraid that mainstream Christianity is its own worst enemy when it comes to engaging the culture for Christ because we've proven over and over again that our hope is not in Christ but in political and social reform--God help us!
GGM
Vinyl Man, He's not real is he?
ReplyDeleteThose quote's by that cartoon women, I love those, I will need to remember to use them, their great. Rick b
'I Love the granny comments; I can't decide which one I like the best!'
ReplyDeleteThanks Jason, my Mom emails them to me.
'This is a shame, of course, but I think this is because mainstream "evangelical" Christianity seems to see the role of Christians in this world as simply affecting national policy or social concerns through political strategy. I don't think we (in America, anyway) understand the biblical model of "culture making".'
'As Christians (Western Christians, anyway) we get so narrowly focused on certain (mainly political) arenas of life that we effectively forget who we are as human beings (first) and "Christians" (second). Our society is going downhill because we are not viewing ourselves and our role in this world biblically-we're only concerned about ourselves and being "right" rather than cultivating the proper understanding of our calling as human beings made in the image of God.'
Interesting.
Russ:)
Thanks, Rick.
ReplyDeleteI doubt Vinyl Man is real, but I reason he is rather, in part, a product of a computer graphics designer.
Yes, the Granny has an attitude.
Russ:)
I have seen a few related posts to these over the last few days. Interesting stuff. One of the big questions that is coming up in relation to all this, however, is what does it even mean to be evangelical? It seems that term is getting harder and harder to define.
ReplyDeleteNonetheless, a few thoughts. First, there's a major problem the way evangelicalism is tied to social conservatism. While I'm not a liberal, I'm also not comfortable calling myself a conservative in the manner in which that term is usually used. This two-party structure, especially here in the US, has descended into a battle of good vs. evil. The problem, as I see it, is that there are significant idols on both sides. It's not as simple as one versus the other.
Second, I don't know if we can talk about an evangelical collapse, when, as I hinted to above, the term evangelical is getting harder and harder to find. I think we're seeing a bit of an evangelical dissolution (note the emergence of the "New Calvinism"...did you see the TIME piece on it yesterday?) as well.
Anyway, just a few thoughts, I may have more to come later on...
'One of the big questions that is coming up in relation to all this, however, is what does it even mean to be evangelical? It seems that term is getting harder and harder to define.'
ReplyDeleteTrue. I am a member of the Evangelical Theological Society and Evangelical Philosophical Society.
I agree with the basic views and beyond I reason, for membership requirement, but as a Christian scholar I am primarily Reformed.
I state that I am a moderate conservative, and you make a good point, Jake.
I sense from dialogue and reading that many within the Reformed movement (Presbyterians and Baptists) theologically at least are more comfortable with a primary tag of Reformed as opposed to Evangelical.
Thanks, Jake.
Russ:)
I doubt anything as extreme as secessionism will happen as a response to anti-conservatism, at least not here in Kanada (yeah I know we have a "conservative" party leading the country...)
ReplyDeleteChristians here are already long used to being isolated from the mainstream. It would not surprise me to see Christianity becoming less visible culturally, yet stronger in terms of followers becoming more serious about their faith.
'(note the emergence of the "New Calvinism"...did you see the TIME piece on it yesterday?) as well.'
ReplyDeleteThanks again, Jake. No I have not seen the piece.
Chucky, I hope there can be some kind of reformation/revival of Biblical Christianity in order that the hypothetical coming collapse does not occur.
Hello Russ,
ReplyDeleteI believe Granny's name is Maxine. She is absolutely Hilarious! I just love her attitude lol!
Vinyl man is very grotesque!(I don't know if that's how you spell it or not), but anyways he is disgusting. i am sure he's not real but like we use to say in the early 80's "Gross, gag me with a spoon!"
That might be a little bit before your time! but Vinyl man fits the bill!
After reading your post, i thought about the puritans and the seperatist. Do you have any views about those two groups?
In Christ
Tamela :)
Hi Tamela.
ReplyDeleteI have no strong opinion on either group and have not studied them very much.
If Biblical Christianity publicly declines over the next several decades in Canada, it would not surprise me if house churches became the norm as opposed to public churches in buildings.
Cheers,
Russ:)
Quotations:
Puritans
'The Puritans were an influential minority of Protestants who were dissatisfied with the Elizabethan Settlement. (One commented that Anglicanism was "a crooked compromise betwixt two religions.") The Puritans desired a simpler Church ritual and doctrine more in line with Calvinism --a return to what they conceived as the "pure" form of the early Christian Church. (However, their name was given to them by their detractors, who scorned "Pure-itan" self-righteousness.)
Defining Anglican or Puritan belief is difficult because both groups had overlapping aims and ideals. There was no common creed that set Puritans apart, and Anglican doctrine was ambiguous by its very nature as a middle ground between two religious extremes.
But despite ambiguities, uncertainties, and differences of opinion (or faith), religious leaders seemed to share a naïve hope: "May God at length grant that we may all of us think the same things*!"
In the same spirit, to promote order and stability, Elizabeth claimed that she strove for a realm without "diversity, variety, contention and vain love of singularity." (From a letter written to Archbishop Parker in 1565.)
(All quotations on this page are found in McGrath, 87, 99, 398.)
Separatists
'Separatist religion also called Independent
Any of the English Christians in the 16th and 17th centuries who wished to separate from the Church of England and form independent local churches. They were eventually called Congregationalists. Separatists were most influential politically in England during the time of the Commonwealth (1649–60) under Oliver Cromwell, the lord protector, who was himself a Separatist. Subsequently, they survived repression and gradually became an important religious minority in England.'
Thanks Russ for your comment. I need to do some more studying on that one. My thoughts were that puritans would try to purify the church from within and some had seen that this was getting no where so that is when they separated themselves and began their own congregation. It's kinda like the public school system and parents, when their voices are not heard from within as try to purify the system parents will pull their children from the public system and thus we have homeschooling.
ReplyDeleteWhen i was reading your post i was thinking about this. Are we to be a Christian people that work from within or should we work from without and be the light that shines on a hill as the Bible speaks so that many will see our light and good works and glorify our Father in Heaven. I have been thinking about our world and it seems as though we are being forced to stand on the outside and not within. Just some thoughts that i have been having. Haven't got solid answers as of yet though.
Thanks again
Tamela :)
'I have been thinking about our world and it seems as though we are being forced to stand on the outside and not within.'
ReplyDeleteTamela, I think that is excellent reasoning.
It is seemingly becoming more that way in the United States and is already very much that way in Canada and Western Europe.
I was saying to Chucky last night while he was visiting, that in my lifetime through the 1970s and onward, as a child and as adult, secularism has been the norm. Christianity for the most part in Greater Vancouver has been led by the liberal mainline churches. The Biblical churches have seemingly been the secondary churches in this area as far as influence.
Perhaps for us Canadians the further secularization of both church and society is less surprising and something we are more used in comparison to Reformed, evangelical, and fundamentalist American Christians that see their overall influence in a Christianized country becoming much less.
As I have noted previously, when I visited my brother and family in Peoria, Arizona in 2002, I thought the Phoenix area had the most religious buildings of any place I had ever been to, and that includes Orlando and Atlanta. That was my impression and a major cultural difference from Greater Vancouver and Manchester where I have lived.
Russ
Thanks Russ,
ReplyDeleteYeah, there are a lot of religious buildings alright but sadly the Word of God does not play a part in many of them.
Thanks again Russ:)
I figured that would be the case, and many of those churches I had never heard of in my life.
ReplyDeleteThanks, Tamela.
This just in:
'For the approval of your winning/prize of one million Euro;
Contact: Mr. Martin Freeman E-mail:verification3@live.com
TELEPHONE:+4470 1112 1986'
Way too funny car-chase !!!!
ReplyDeleteYou must admire the persistence,
JME
Thanks, Jimmy.
ReplyDeleteRuss:)
"Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society."
ReplyDeleteHi Russ! Interesting that we should both pick the same subject material to write from. Especially since you mainly write from your research.
My opinion of how Evangelical Christianity will be perceived in the future is that it has already been perceived as such.
In a world where people want to self actualize, Christianity has always been a problem. Only when someone was brave enough to state their opposition to what used to be the status quo (Christianity) did the rest of the band jump on the band wagon.
In the United States, it used to be seen as subversive to oppose Christian morals and virtues. Open participation in what goes on today would have been shameful; and who wants that. These days, I can barely find something that society calls shameful. If an action is considered as shameful, it is because it is not done in the 'correct' venue.
Those are good insights on shame.
ReplyDeleteCheers, Jim.
Russ:)
Greetings Russ,
ReplyDeleteI struggle with the strong sense of Nationalism that has infected evangelical Christianity. It appears to me that we have compromised the Gospel to focus on fighting for morality and rights.
The early church spoke about Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Our current discussion is all over the board in terms of rights, issues, and control.
It is my conviction that we need to give the world Jesus.
Joyfully Serving,
Kermit
'I struggle with the strong sense of Nationalism that has infected evangelical Christianity. It appears to me that we have compromised the Gospel to focus on fighting for morality and rights.'
ReplyDeleteThanks, Kermit.
Yes, the gospel must come first.
Russ
Perhaps a more accurate article
ReplyDeletein my opinion might be found here:
http://www.breakpoint.org/listingarticle.asp?ID=11504
by Chuck Colson pertaining to
state of evangelicalism.
Thanks for what you do online!
'Just think what God might do with 34 percent of the American population calling themselves evangelicals—if those evangelicals re-capture their first love, present a winsome witness, and do the good works God has prepared for us to do.'
ReplyDeleteThanks, Leroy.
Western governments, most of the media and most of the Universities seems primarily opposed to Biblical Christianity. To me, I see the cultural trends going against the Church, but I hope and pray that the Lord will allow the Church to keep growing and I pray for Reformation.
I appreciate the support, Leroy!
In the United States, public schools are failing, and students have long stopped concentrating on the foundational basics. The focus has largely turned to building up self-esteem. In some schools, the teacher will quiz students on certain things, and will tell the students there are no wrong answers (so as not to damage their self-esteem). Referring to Proposition 8 in California, Randy Thomasson, president of Campaign for Children and Families, said that, without Proposition 8, school children in the younger grades will be taught to honor homosexual marriage between two men or two women as married role models. Jennifer Kerns, a spokesperson for a Proposition 8 support coalition, said that the California Education Code clearly states that schools would be required to provide instruction to children as young as kindergartners that same-sex marriage is the same as traditional marriage. In Feb. 2007, a federal judge in Massachusetts ordered the "gay" agenda taught to Christians who attended a public school there, ordering that it is reasonable and that there is an obligation for public schools to teach young children to accept and endorse homosexuality. Even back in 1999, President Clinton announced a plan to subject junior high students to gay-inclusive tolerance lessons. In desperation, many are turning to private (including Christian) schools, homeschooling and Montessori schools.
ReplyDeleteA similar thing seems to be happening to many churches. Church-goers (and society in general) are largely biblically illiterate. Mainline denominations have become increasingly liberal, so many have been turning to non-denominational churches. Even among evangelical churches, there is a focus on building up self and focusing on the needs and wants of self. Self-help books have become popular, and influences from secular humanism, materialism, modern psychology, the New Age movement, etc., have seeped into the Church.
Thanks, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteRuss
"The Obama administration will endorse a U.N. declaration calling for the worldwide decriminalization of homosexuality that then-President George W. Bush had refused to sign, The Associated Press has learned."
ReplyDelete----------
Also:
The Obama Deception (full movie)
"The Obama Deception is a hard-hitting film that completely destroys the myth that Barack Obama is working for the best interests of the American people. The Obama phenomenon is a hoax carefully crafted by the captains of the New World Order."
Decriminalization or not, I think if our Western society was thinking anywhere correctly on the issue in regard to the science of it, as there is no potential for natural reproduction, homosexuality would be looked at as a psychological disorder.
ReplyDeleteFrom a Christian perspective this can be viewed as due to human corruption and imperfection, and from a secular perspective, at least as being from human imperfection and quite possibly corruption, even if not spiritual (Christian worldview) but only mental.
Imperfection and corruption leads often to wrong human choices.
Anyway, in conclusion for now in the Western world the homosexuality issue is an issue lost by the Church and won by secular Western society.
What needs to be done is the actual Biblical Christian Church kept Biblical.
Thanks very much, Jeff, much appreciated.
BTW, that Obama Deception video may possibly be partially conspiracy theory, but I think there is at least some truth to it, and maybe even a lot of truth. The idea that there are powerful forces influencing national and even world events (certain organizations, the media, certain individuals with money and/or power, etc.), as well as the idea of a New World Order, are nothing new. Some people believe in an Illuminati. Some think the Pope, Catholic Church, and/or Vatican are controlling world events. Some link these things with the Knights Templar and/or the Masons. Personally, I am skeptical about conspiracy theories. But, in any case, we know that Satan is the god of this world, and that Yahweh (YHWH) God has ultimate control, and has prophesied end-time events in Revelation.
ReplyDeleteSure, Jeff.
ReplyDeleteI will consider on satire and theology and thekingpin68 in comments, legitimate evidence concerning a possible one world order.
Thanks again,
Russ:)
You really need to lay off those weights. ;-)
ReplyDeleteJust wanted to stop by and say, "hi." Hi! *waving*
~Farrah
Hello, Farrah...waving back.
ReplyDeleteThanks for commenting. It is a good thing there are not steroids for theology.;)
Russ
Russ,
ReplyDelete"Now, I realize that I do not live in Christianized America"
I live here and I didn't realize I live in Christianized America! When I was a young man, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth, I did, but then I wasn't a Christian.
Jesus warned us a time would come when good would be considered evil, and evil considered good. Reading through the comments in both your and Jim's posts shows how much we should recognize the truth of this in our day.
Larry E.
Thanks very much, Larry.
ReplyDelete'Jesus warned us a time would come when good would be considered evil, and evil considered good. Reading through the comments in both your and Jim's posts shows how much we should recognize the truth of this in our day.'
Good point.
Even with increased secularism, I reason America is Christianized (I would not use the term Christian nation) as in Christianity has a major cultural and political influence that it does not have in Canada and in most nations.
Russ:)
Just thought I would share some good news with all you Catholics out their.
ReplyDeleteI have a friend who is doing missions over in Africa, He told me that the local cannabals are giving up Catholics for lent, so I guess you guys can start heading over to Africa again. And as for me, Every year for Lent, I always give up Lent for Lent. Rick b
Thanks, Rick.:)
ReplyDeleteDid you manage to check out my accident videos on thekingpin68 in comments?
Russ:)
That video is almost as funny as a video my dad sent me a while back.
ReplyDeleteUp in Canada it showed a car with a state trooper right behind it, The car was stuck in the snow and was spinning it tires trying to get away, well guess what? So was the trooper right behind him.
So the guy in the passanger seat gets out and runs behind the car and tries pushing it while the driver floors it. Sadly the state trooper does exactly the same thing. Its funny if you can find it.
I believe the caption on the video was called "canadian car chase"
Well while writing this, I opended a new window and found it on youtube, You gotta post it, it is very funny. Rick b
Thanks, Rick.
ReplyDeleteI have seen the commercial, it is funny.
Russ:)
Canadian car chase
If that chase was/is for real, then you gotta think, can/are people really that stupid? rick b
ReplyDeleteAnother good point, Rick.
ReplyDeleteWow, with Iron Man now joining Green Lantern, those blog trolls don't stand a chance!
ReplyDeleteOn a different note, I think one of the best ways to reform society is to work to bring more people into the Kingdom.
Hey, the Word Verification for this comment is "repentr." How appropriate! That's exactly what we need in society: more "repenters."
'Wow, with Iron Man now joining Green Lantern, those blog trolls don't stand a chance!'
ReplyDeleteYes sir!;)
You know Russ that pic of the Vinyl Man is sooooo gross...is it real?? Anyways back to the article...you said:
ReplyDelete"In regard to evangelicalism and politics:
'1. ... This will prove to be a very costly mistake. Evangelicals will increasingly be seen as a threat to cultural progress. Public leaders will consider us bad for America, bad for education, bad for children, and bad for society. '"
This is so true...i was watching the 700 Club & Pat Robertson was saying that soon they (government) will be saying what we are even "allowed to think" or we will get in trouble!! I remember hearing one of the pres. speeches & he was pretty much saying change is coming & those who oppose it are wrong & will be held accountable for NOT going with the flow!! :( Well look in revelation at what is going to happen to those who don't except the mark of the beast (which i believe to be the micro-chip implant)...beheaded & blood shed!! There see...that is World Government Domination over those who won't go with the flow!! Bible says will he find faith on the earth when he comes...the world is becoming so controlled by the devil & his demons trying to grasp every last soul to steal away from God & His love & protection & he (the devil) is suceeding with leaps & bounds...he (the devil) knows Jesus is coming soon & he (the devil) is desperately working to seek & devour as many souls as he can!! :( We need to speak up & declare the Word of the Lord & set the captives free & not focus so hard on earthly things but spiritual things...because where our treasure is there our heart will be also!! Let Jesus & His salvation be the moving & domineering factor in all that we do & say!! The time is short!! Come quickly Lord Jesus!!
Thanks, Sherry.
ReplyDeleteChristian blogging with participants such as yourself is one good way, among many, to promote the gospel.
Russ:)
So true Russ...and i appreciate the work that you have done & all the hours of study you have accumulated to learn & understand & share what you have come to believe & understand!! :) THANKS!!
ReplyDeleteVery good, Sherry.:)
ReplyDeleteRuss;)
I do not even understand how I ended up right here, however I thought this put up was good.
ReplyDeleteI do not recognise who you are but certainly you're going to a well-known blogger in case you aren't already.
Cheers!
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