Wow, marvelous blog layout! How long have you been blogging for? you make blogging look easy. The overall look of your website is magnificent, let alone the content!
I'm reading that thick Perspectives book edited by Ralph Winter, and it's eye-opening. I'm learning that there are groups within a culture, each with their own orientation, and if you want to reach out to them you've got to understand each where they are. Sometimes it takes believers from outside to get through, since local insiders are so wrapped up in their own group.
I can do big-big picture: everyone in the West for the last two hundred years is a Kantian, used to the idea that religion is just one way of looking at the world, and must coexist with other ways that contradict it. That means, Jesus is important but keep him in his place. That helps us understand Germans and Canadians and Americans, but maybe not Africans? That's a beginning, but with the in-groups we are talking with, maybe even being Kantian means different things for different groups?
I hope I'm reading Ralph Winter wrong, but he can sound as if this is a job for only very skilled cultural experts, while the rest of us just aren't qualified. So what can you and I do with all that? I start off by being so joyful over what just happened in my PCA denomination. In their yearly General Assembly, so many people repented of their indifference to the sufferings of blacks during the Civil Rights times. I just did not expect that from Southern white people, but it really happened, it's continuing to happen, black people are helping us to get all our story straight, so this time around our repentance won't be as shallow as it easily could become. I wish so much I'd been there, but the report itself is so encouraging. God is at work, even in our coming to terms with our history of deep disinterest in each other. People must have been praying, but it was still so unexpected—the Lord himself did this!
Can we keep on doing that, this time in understanding the people in poverty around us? Or underpaid women? Or children in schools where it's hard to learn anything? Can we understand people, not just to make their coming to Christ easier, vitally important though that is, but also to make their lives better, much more livable? That will take some serious political thinking. Should we vote to support those who make abortion more difficult? That sounds right, but aren't they the same people who want a tax policy that stands in the way of people escaping poverty? I enjoy asking big questions like that—but am I just doing that to avoid talking to the folks next door? I wave when I see them outside, but that can't be nearly enough if I really wanted to get to know them.
Winter is probably right and really figuring out a whole culture is going to be hard. So what should we be doing, all of us non-experts? We're surrounded by people who don't know Jesus, and we need to get to know them and to bring the love of God into their lives. Don't we? We do have a lot in common with them, and talking about the weather isn't worthless, nor about the schools, nor about the election coming up. We need you Ralph Winter, but we know we're called to love those near us too, without waiting for you to tell us how, though we wish you would.
There is that thing called prayer, it's real and it's our calling. O Lord, help me hear what's important to him, help me ask her the right questions, change my heart so I'm doing the Great Commission and showing the love of Christ too, the way it's supposed to be.
But there's even more to it than that. What those Perspectives people are saying is this: when we send the message that to come to Christ you will have to leave your culture and join ours, there may be some who will do that—but the other people in their old culture will see that to be a believer in Jesus means abandoning your old culture and kin and friends. Could it go the other way, that we don't harvest an individual out of his culture, but instead we bring almost the entire group to Jesus? That's really what the book is about.
We know the Jew/Gentile interaction is different, since Jews were truly God's chosen people—but still, what is the NT about besides Gentiles coming to Christ too and Jews trying then to figure out how we could all be one people of the Lord? Read the book of Acts again and see thousands of Jews coming to Christ at the same time! There's the other piece of Winter and friends, telling us not only to focus on cultures but also to do it so thoroughly that we harvest almost an entire culture at once. Doesn't that remind you of Jesus' strange words, that the harvest is so big that there's a shortage of harvesters?
So here are two lessons at once: speak to people in language they understand, and work toward how that will bring many of them in at the same time. That fits not just foreign mission fields but where we are ourselves, as the gospel becomes less and less meaningful for so many here, so that where we are looks more and more "foreign."
Could that mean we should be getting to know people from Christian traditions besides ours? My own experience is that much of our religious identity comes from being different from others, so it comes down to, "we're not like that." Some Christians are eager to understand where women are today, and so have no problem with women leading in worship (let's leave out the ordination thing now)—and that can make others so uncomfortable they can't imagine worshipping with them. In my philosophy world there have always been different approaches to understanding reality, and so that naturally results in diverging theological methods, another place for discomfort and avoidance. The list goes on forever, of things that push us apart.
I read books, many books—and I'm surprised how much better I can understand God's word from what I learn from people from the "wrong tradition." Pentecostals, Roman Catholics, dispensationalists, people still in liberal denominations—somehow they know things I didn't know before I read them. How can that be, people are consistent aren't they, so must I not be really understanding what I think they are saying? But if when I look at the part of the Bible they are talking about, and see that what they say fits what it says, then something good is going on. I and my wife Carol are now on a presbytery committee doing "fraternal relations" and very soon we'll be thinking together about the spiritual needs of Philadelphia. I am getting ready for that, that's why Perspectives is so helpful.
How can I talk to and then work with Roman Catholics? I know church history, and what Martin Luther discovered in the RC church was really there, the message that if you try really hard there's some chance the Lord will give you grace, maybe. He was totally right to move the focus away from trying harder to God's gift of Savior Jesus. His word "extraspective," that you should look not at yourself but at Jesus the Christ, is by far the best word not in the dictionary. They refused to listen to him, why would they listen to me? What would be the point?
But if I listen first, what could happen? Catholics know a lot more Bible than they did then, maybe they read it more than most Protestants? I'm trying to learn about the "spiritual disciplines," and I wonder if they could tell me if I'm doing the Great Silence right? Or what I can learn about following Jesus from Mary and her faith? I think I'm almost ready to listen.
Or listening to Liberal Protestants, the people who once believed it all and then dumped it? Could you tell me how the Bible works in your heart even though it's full of errors? Is that similar to the way there are parts of it I avoid reading? Tell me about how the old social gospel made a difference?
This isn't the same as Perspectives, it's about groups within a non-Christian culture, and I'm thinking about groups within our shallow religious world, the world I live in. What will come from our all getting to know each other in Philadelphia? Groups of people enjoying a much deeper faith? Not individuals crossing lines to come to us, but reaching out vigorously so many will remain in their accustomed places, but knowing and loving the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ more?
At least I'm not recycling old thoughts, right? I know a godly group of people who after 80 years have grown to a church of 31K, and I honor them. But is there another way, of deeper faith and greater blessing for everyone in Philadelphia? Of an honest exploring that even our young people would enthusiastically join in?
A preacher was making his rounds on a bicycle, when he came upon a little boy trying to sell a lawn mower. 'How much do you want for the mower?' asked the preacher.
'I just want enough money to go out and buy me a bicycle,' said the little boy.
After a moment of consideration, the preacher asked, Will you take my bike in trade for it?'
The little boy asked if he could try it out first, and, after riding the bike around a little while, said, 'Mister, you've got yourself a deal.'
The preacher took the mower and began to crank it. He pulled on the rope a few times with no response from the mower. The preacher called the little boy over and said, 'I can't get this mower to start.'
The little boy said, 'That's because you have to cuss at it to get it started.'
The preacher said, I can't cuss. It's been so long since I became a Christian that I don't even remember how to cuss.'
The little boy looked at him happily and said, 'You just keep pulling on that rope. It'll come back to ya.
Wow, marvelous blog layout! How long have you been blogging for?
ReplyDeleteyou make blogging look easy. The overall look
of your website is magnificent, let alone the content!
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"Bob, why don't you play golf with John anymore?" asked a friend.
ReplyDelete"Would you play golf with a guy who moved the ball with his foot when you weren't watching?" Bob asked.
"Well, no," admitted the friend.
"Neither will John," replied Bob.
…..Doc’s Daily Chuckle (docsdailychuckle@associate.com) by way of “Christian Voices” (ChristianVoices@att.net)
Bringing in the Sheaves
ReplyDeleteI'm reading that thick Perspectives book edited by Ralph Winter, and it's eye-opening. I'm learning that there are groups within a culture, each with their own orientation, and if you want to reach out to them you've got to understand each where they are. Sometimes it takes believers from outside to get through, since local insiders are so wrapped up in their own group.
I can do big-big picture: everyone in the West for the last two hundred years is a Kantian, used to the idea that religion is just one way of looking at the world, and must coexist with other ways that contradict it. That means, Jesus is important but keep him in his place. That helps us understand Germans and Canadians and Americans, but maybe not Africans? That's a beginning, but with the in-groups we are talking with, maybe even being Kantian means different things for different groups?
ReplyDeleteI hope I'm reading Ralph Winter wrong, but he can sound as if this is a job for only very skilled cultural experts, while the rest of us just aren't qualified. So what can you and I do with all that? I start off by being so joyful over what just happened in my PCA denomination. In their yearly General Assembly, so many people repented of their indifference to the sufferings of blacks during the Civil Rights times. I just did not expect that from Southern white people, but it really happened, it's continuing to happen, black people are helping us to get all our story straight, so this time around our repentance won't be as shallow as it easily could become. I wish so much I'd been there, but the report itself is so encouraging. God is at work, even in our coming to terms with our history of deep disinterest in each other. People must have been praying, but it was still so unexpected—the Lord himself did this!
ReplyDeleteCan we keep on doing that, this time in understanding the people in poverty around us? Or underpaid women? Or children in schools where it's hard to learn anything? Can we understand people, not just to make their coming to Christ easier, vitally important though that is, but also to make their lives better, much more livable? That will take some serious political thinking. Should we vote to support those who make abortion more difficult? That sounds right, but aren't they the same people who want a tax policy that stands in the way of people escaping poverty? I enjoy asking big questions like that—but am I just doing that to avoid talking to the folks next door? I wave when I see them outside, but that can't be nearly enough if I really wanted to get to know them.
ReplyDeleteWinter is probably right and really figuring out a whole culture is going to be hard. So what should we be doing, all of us non-experts? We're surrounded by people who don't know Jesus, and we need to get to know them and to bring the love of God into their lives. Don't we? We do have a lot in common with them, and talking about the weather isn't worthless, nor about the schools, nor about the election coming up. We need you Ralph Winter, but we know we're called to love those near us too, without waiting for you to tell us how, though we wish you would.
ReplyDeleteThere is that thing called prayer, it's real and it's our calling. O Lord, help me hear what's important to him, help me ask her the right questions, change my heart so I'm doing the Great Commission and showing the love of Christ too, the way it's supposed to be.
ReplyDeleteBut there's even more to it than that. What those Perspectives people are saying is this: when we send the message that to come to Christ you will have to leave your culture and join ours, there may be some who will do that—but the other people in their old culture will see that to be a believer in Jesus means abandoning your old culture and kin and friends. Could it go the other way, that we don't harvest an individual out of his culture, but instead we bring almost the entire group to Jesus? That's really what the book is about.
ReplyDeleteWe know the Jew/Gentile interaction is different, since Jews were truly God's chosen people—but still, what is the NT about besides Gentiles coming to Christ too and Jews trying then to figure out how we could all be one people of the Lord? Read the book of Acts again and see thousands of Jews coming to Christ at the same time! There's the other piece of Winter and friends, telling us not only to focus on cultures but also to do it so thoroughly that we harvest almost an entire culture at once. Doesn't that remind you of Jesus' strange words, that the harvest is so big that there's a shortage of harvesters?
ReplyDeleteSo here are two lessons at once: speak to people in language they understand, and work toward how that will bring many of them in at the same time. That fits not just foreign mission fields but where we are ourselves, as the gospel becomes less and less meaningful for so many here, so that where we are looks more and more "foreign."
ReplyDeleteCould that mean we should be getting to know people from Christian traditions besides ours? My own experience is that much of our religious identity comes from being different from others, so it comes down to, "we're not like that." Some Christians are eager to understand where women are today, and so have no problem with women leading in worship (let's leave out the ordination thing now)—and that can make others so uncomfortable they can't imagine worshipping with them. In my philosophy world there have always been different approaches to understanding reality, and so that naturally results in diverging theological methods, another place for discomfort and avoidance. The list goes on forever, of things that push us apart.
ReplyDeleteI read books, many books—and I'm surprised how much better I can understand God's word from what I learn from people from the "wrong tradition." Pentecostals, Roman Catholics, dispensationalists, people still in liberal denominations—somehow they know things I didn't know before I read them. How can that be, people are consistent aren't they, so must I not be really understanding what I think they are saying? But if when I look at the part of the Bible they are talking about, and see that what they say fits what it says, then something good is going on. I and my wife Carol are now on a presbytery committee doing "fraternal relations" and very soon we'll be thinking together about the spiritual needs of Philadelphia. I am getting ready for that, that's why Perspectives is so helpful.
ReplyDeleteHow can I talk to and then work with Roman Catholics? I know church history, and what Martin Luther discovered in the RC church was really there, the message that if you try really hard there's some chance the Lord will give you grace, maybe. He was totally right to move the focus away from trying harder to God's gift of Savior Jesus. His word "extraspective," that you should look not at yourself but at Jesus the Christ, is by far the best word not in the dictionary. They refused to listen to him, why would they listen to me? What would be the point?
ReplyDeleteBut if I listen first, what could happen? Catholics know a lot more Bible than they did then, maybe they read it more than most Protestants? I'm trying to learn about the "spiritual disciplines," and I wonder if they could tell me if I'm doing the Great Silence right? Or what I can learn about following Jesus from Mary and her faith? I think I'm almost ready to listen.
ReplyDeleteOr listening to Liberal Protestants, the people who once believed it all and then dumped it? Could you tell me how the Bible works in your heart even though it's full of errors? Is that similar to the way there are parts of it I avoid reading? Tell me about how the old social gospel made a difference?
ReplyDeleteThis isn't the same as Perspectives, it's about groups within a non-Christian culture, and I'm thinking about groups within our shallow religious world, the world I live in. What will come from our all getting to know each other in Philadelphia? Groups of people enjoying a much deeper faith? Not individuals crossing lines to come to us, but reaching out vigorously so many will remain in their accustomed places, but knowing and loving the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ more?
ReplyDeleteAt least I'm not recycling old thoughts, right? I know a godly group of people who after 80 years have grown to a church of 31K, and I honor them. But is there another way, of deeper faith and greater blessing for everyone in Philadelphia? Of an honest exploring that even our young people would enthusiastically join in?
ReplyDeleteD. Clair Davis
Mrs. Baker, a fifth grade teacher, observed a student in her class during a True/False test, flipping a coin and then choosing an answer.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Baker thought to herself, "Hah! Norman didn't study again."
This answer selection method continued throughout the entire test.
After Norman was obviously finished, Mrs. Baker again watched Norman flipping the coin and continuing through the test a second time.
"Norman, what are you doing now?" asked Mrs. Baker.
Norman replied, "I'm doing what you always tell us to do! I'm checking my answers!"
…..Mikeys Funnies (www.mikeysFunnies.com) by way of “Christian Voices” (ChristianVoices@att.net)
A preacher was making his rounds on a bicycle, when he came upon a little boy trying to sell a lawn mower. 'How much do you want for the mower?' asked the preacher.
ReplyDelete'I just want enough money to go out and buy me a bicycle,' said the little boy.
After a moment of consideration, the preacher asked, Will you take my bike in trade for it?'
The little boy asked if he could try it out first, and, after riding the bike around a little while, said, 'Mister, you've got yourself a deal.'
The preacher took the mower and began to crank it. He pulled on the rope a few times with no response from the mower. The preacher called the little boy over and said, 'I can't get this mower to start.'
The little boy said, 'That's because you have to cuss at it to get it started.'
The preacher said, I can't cuss. It's been so long since I became a Christian that I don't even remember how to cuss.'
The little boy looked at him happily and said, 'You just keep pulling on that rope. It'll come back to ya.